06-22-2003, 06:28 AM | #51 | |
Zartan
Join Date: May 2, 2001
Location: Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum
Age: 43
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But what exactly is it with this case that makes people question the entire law? Having read a number of articles about this case, I see no reason whatsoever why the entire law should be questioned; you're free to defend yourself from criminals, as long as you don't use obviously excessive means. Perhaps there might be a gray area containing a lot of difficult cases under this law, like killing an intruder when it's unclear whether the methods used were reasonable or not (after all, "reasonable" is subjective to a certain point), but I doubt Tony Martin's case is even anywhere close to that gray area. Or was there just one of those ridiculous rightwing-tinged media circuses to raise sympathy for "poor mister Martin's case", like happened in the Netherlands with those supermarket employees who went all Rambo on an already neutralized thief and cried wolf for not being seen en masse as the heroes they regarded themselves to be? * and yes, I'm just kidding around.[ 06-22-2003, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ] |
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06-22-2003, 02:04 PM | #52 | ||||||||||
Drizzt Do'Urden
Join Date: August 16, 2002
Location: Newcastle, England
Age: 45
Posts: 699
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The thing is, that is not unreasonable. That is the way the law actually stands. The police tell us we are *not* allowed to stop an intruder in our homes, and recent court rulings say that criminals *are* protected from being stopped physically should they intrude. The actual problem is not excessive force - the problem is that we are restricted from using *any* force, whatsoever. I have news for you - even if we used one of your magic tranquiliser guns, we would still be arrested and put in jail for assault Quote:
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Anyway, as you say, he shouldn't have had a shotgun. Luckily, in this country, we don't need guns as the criminals generally do not own them. *However*, had Tony Martin used a bat, or his fists, and the intruder had died as a result? Tony Martin would have been in jail serving the same time for the same 'crime'. Even if the burglar hadn't died, he still would have had jail time. Quote:
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It is not the case that Tony Martin shooting the boy started a rash of criminal complaints and requests for protection, but that the over-protection of the criminal leads to people with no respect for the law thinking they can do as they please and break into homes as and when they want, without fear of recrimination. The over-protection of criminals led to Tony Martin's reaction. Not the other way around. Quote:
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[ 06-22-2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Bardan the Slayer ]
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06-22-2003, 02:08 PM | #53 |
Manshoon
Join Date: June 18, 2003
Location: Vancouver
Age: 57
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Originally posted by mouse:
I don't say that there is an easy solution to striking the balance between an individuals right to take steps to ensure self-protection and the duty not to use unreasonable methods to enforce that right The entire topic here is "What IS excessive force?" A guy I worked with went to the Dominican Republic just less than a year ago now on his honeymoon (and yes this is a true story) On his very first night there he had some sort of an altrication with a local and he wound up in a fight with the guy. The guy went down so my buddy started to walk away...the guy got back up, pulled a knife and came at him again. My buddy managed to knock him down again and the guy lost the knife...my buddy said to the guy stay down and tried again to walk away. The guy got up again and came after him again. This is where things came to an end. My buddy put the guy down once more and boot stomped him in the head. By this time the police were showing up and they hauled him off to a Dominican jail where he was told 3 days later that the guy died of a brain hemorrage. The only reason hes not still in the cell right now is that there were witnesses saying that my buddy tried to walk away on more than one occasion but the other guy just kept coming back for more. When do you draw the line on whats excessive?
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06-22-2003, 02:18 PM | #54 | |||||
Drizzt Do'Urden
Join Date: August 16, 2002
Location: Newcastle, England
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Let me explain. Had Tony Martin confronted the intruders with a baseball bat that he kept by his bedside, and the intruders had run away, then Tony would have been ok, right? Wrong. The very act of arming himself just in case would have been counted as threatening behaviour, and he would have faced fines and a jail sentence, without a punch being thrown or a bat being swung. Justice? Quote:
Oh, one thing that is not law, but that is police advise - "Confont the intruder and find out what his intentions are before taking action." Remember - you must be totally unarmed when you do this, and if the intruder is willing to kill you, then you don't have much of a chance, do you? Quote:
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06-22-2003, 02:28 PM | #55 | |
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Scotland
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[/QUOTE]Possibly not. Here is a case where there was no prosecution of the property owners faced with just such a situation.
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06-22-2003, 02:35 PM | #56 | |||
Drizzt Do'Urden
Join Date: August 16, 2002
Location: Newcastle, England
Age: 45
Posts: 699
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Still, Mouse - doesn't the very fact that something as commonsense as "[homeowner allowed to defend home]" as a headline is newsworthy? This shouldn't be on a national news website. This should be an everyday occurrence. It should be in the news when someone *is* charged with using a weapon to defend their home, not when they are *not*. Quote:
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Even worse, what kind of country is it where it is a shock and surprise when the man isn't charged? I salute Judge Hugh Mayor QC for actually making a reasonable, in-touch decision. If only more judges would accept his viewpoint. [ 06-22-2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Bardan the Slayer ]
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06-22-2003, 03:01 PM | #57 |
Ironworks Moderator
Join Date: March 1, 2001
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Bardan, the above case puts my arguement in context. In the Tony Martin Case, where the arguements and circumstances of the events were examined in detail, the jury decided that the methods Mr.Martin employed went beyond what the jury considered reasonable.
In the other case (and I don't know whether it was a jury trial or not), it was decided that the force used was reasonable in the circumstances. Each case was decided on it's own merits, but both show that in UK law you can take action to defend your property from intruders. In both cases the actual methods used were examined. Tony Martin's conviction stemmed from the fact that what he did was to mete out a personal punishment to intruders which went far beyond what the jury could accept as reasonable.
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06-22-2003, 04:36 PM | #58 | |||
Zartan
Join Date: May 2, 2001
Location: Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum
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Maybe I'll get to responding some of the other bits of Bardan's posts later on (about to go to bed, though; and I've got some exams in the following days which may take up most of my time), but I'll respond to this bit first, before I forget it. Quote:
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