A fine example of modern barbarism..

[Firestormalpha]

Hmm, it's attrotious to say the least.

But the fact is, what we think doesn't matter. as far as the Saudi Gov. is concerned, we don't exist. What matters to them is what they believe is right or wrong, and at the moment, they think that punishing a rape victim is right.

And that I believe is essentially what Thoran was saying. Not that he supported them one way or the other, but it is how it is. Sitting here griping about it like we're better than them doesn't change anything.

[Cadfael]

Originally Posted by Firestormalpha Hmm, it's attrotious to say the least. But the fact is, what we think doesn't matter. as far as the Saudi Gov. is concerned, we don't exist. What matters to them is what they believe is right or wrong, and at the moment, they think that punishing a rape victim is right.

Not simply right... but a divine law handed to them by their God.

Now, before we get on our high horse about punishing the victims of rape because of religious ethics, it was only 20 years ago that young Irish rape victims were imprisoned by the Catholic Church for being temptresses.. for inciting men to rape them. They had their freedom taken away and were sent to the 'Sisters of Charity, Mercy & the Good Shepherd' to pay penance for their inciteful ways in what are now called 'The Magdalene Laundries'

Thankfully we are now beyond that, and we can only hope that what western decency and compassion can prevail upon Saudi Arabia to change its laws. But I don't have much hope as long as faith and religious law come into it.

[Sever]

Originally Posted by Cadfael Thankfully we are now beyond that, and we can only hope that what western decency and compassion can prevail upon Saudi Arabia to change its laws. But I don't have much hope as long as faith and religious law come into it.

Without trying to push the boundaries of the indefinite ban on religious conversation, i agree.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally Posted by Cadfael I do not think he is saying that, what he is saying that Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country with Islamic laws. Their law may be just as much of an ass as our law, but they have a right to make their own laws. We do not like it when they criticise us for allowing our women to go out alone, or in the company of men they are not related to. Thoran is just stating what is fact in Islamic law. It may also sound pedantic, but she is not being lashed for being raped, she is being flogged for breaking Islamic law that states a woman should not be alone in the company of men not related to her. I fully agree, it is barbaric, but that is my free western thinking judging Saudi Arabia. It offends our sense of western justice, but each and every country has the right to make its own laws... no matter how violently we disagree. However, I have always believed that no matter what faith, secular law is the way to go, religion should not be a part of government, but the fact is in many Muslim countries that is the way they do things.

Yes, only no. Every country may have the right to make its own laws, but only to a point. What concerns me is when we're talking about basic human rights violations that are protected by a sort of "Meh, it's their country and they can make their own laws" feeling. I'd say more, but I don't want to be a party to Godwin's law being carried out.

As for those of you who are surprised by this... don't be! This is nothing new at all in that part of the world. It's been going on for quite some time. I'm actually a bit surprised that the punishment for the victim was that mild, and that the perpatrators got punished at all. It's sad that I see this as a possible sign of progress.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Yeah, this was on CBC radio on Friday as well. It's surreal to me.

[Iron Greasel]

Originally Posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar Every country may have the right to make its own laws, but only to a point. What concerns me is when we're talking about basic human rights violations that are protected by a sort of "Meh, it's their country and they can make their own laws" feeling. I'd say more, but I don't want to be a party to Godwin's law being carried out.

I'd say that it's mostly because countries do make their own laws. I don't like it when rape victims are lashed. I don't like it when terrorist suspects are tortured. But even if I had the resources necessary to forcibly make it stop, the results of trying would quite probably be far more horrendous than just sitting quietly in my corner of the world and spending the money on education.

[Thoran]

There's a lot of misinformation in the West regarding Islamic Law (the misinformation goes both ways, but we're talking about a specific situation here)... and it seems to me it's meant to whip up as much anti-Islam sentiment as possible. Sure their law differs from ours, but for every injustice we can point at in their system... they'll do the same in ours.

Both of us are 100% sure we're right.

Both of us have citizens that feel they have the right to tell the other side how to conduct themselves. At the extreme such intolerance results in violence.

A soverign nation DOES have the right to decide what laws will apply to its people - it's one of the fundamental things a government is good for. If the people don't like the laws it's up to them to change them, not up to outsiders. It's one of the most valid arguments against US 'nationbuilding' actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As far as rape under Islamic law... If a rape occurs, the rapists would be punished (it's not rare for them to be prosecuted as someone suggested), the person who was raped would not be punished for being raped. If a person in the Islamic world gets away with rape... it's not because the law allowed them to. I suspect on a per capita basis the Saudi's have a fraction of the unprosecuted rapes that we have in the West.

If a person who was raped IS prosecuted, it's not for being raped, it's for actions taken that were against Islamic law. We may not like the fact that women are not legally allowed to be out in public with unrelated men, but the fact remains that if she had followed that particular law she would not have been raped. The law is barbaric by our standards but perfectly functional... it does exactly what it's intended to do - keep women out of dangerous situations (patronizing as that may feel to us).

The thief loses a hand... again barbaric... again FAR more efficient as a law than our way of dealing with theives. Drug possession is a capital crime in Saudi Arabia, as a result, Drugs are simply not a problem there... and the number of people killed for drug possesion is a TINY fraction (even on a per capita basis) of the number killed in drug related violence in the West. Can any of us say that their way of dealing with drugs is worse than ours? I know I can't, even though I think killing someone for drug possession is barbaric.

Whenever I look at another culture and start to feel like I'm looking down on their way of doing things... I try to remember how thin the glass in our own house is, BEFORE I chuck that first stone.

[pritchke]

This is nothing, she is being punished for breaking the law not being raped. The rapist are also serving lenghtly jail terms far longer than her. I would have only been outraged if those bastards got off scot free. As silly or barbaric as it sounds if the law says not to be alone with men who are not relatives than that is the law and she knew the law. We have laws to that I feel are sometimes silly for example letting violent repeat offenders go once there time is up knowing that they will commit voilent crime again. I think people are more outraged that the law treats the woman like a child by having less freedom than men not that she is being punished for breaking the law or being raped.

I see Thoran and I are on the same wavelength here.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Pritchke, I don't like the word "silly" here in the context you used it. I don't think it's silly to let violent repeat offenders go. I think it's idiotic and dangerous.

The law in question here is idiotic and dangerous because it's being used to blame the victim- something that we know is bad to do. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. Blaming a rape victim is a terrible, damaging thing to do. In addition to that, punishing a rape victim (even if we're going to say that she was breaking the law by being with men, not by being raped) is probably preventing other rape victims from coming forward. And let's not even get into the social stigmas attached- we're talking about the law here. Though the law specifically isn't about rape, I think these laws that curtail the rights and movement of women are an egregious violation of individual rights that belong back in the Dark Ages.

While I do appreciate the sentiment that we're viewing other countries through the lens of so-called "civilized" countries, and who are we to judge, and so on and so forth, this is where I myself draw the line. And don't think for a moment that I'm letting my own country off the hook, or I think everything's just ducky over here. That's not what I think at all. But when laws infringe upon basic human rights, that's when I start to get concerned.

[Bungleau]

I will concur with what Thoran and others have said... My gut reaction was that she was being punished for being raped.

I also don't live (and have not lived) in Saudi or another Muslim country. Therefore I don't have as broad a basis for comparison as others might.

The punishment is officially for a different violation of law, being in the accompaniment of unrelated men. As such, she's not being punished as the victim of a crime, but for a separate offense.

I do think the punishment is a bit severe for her, and relatively lax for the rapists. And while I don't dispute that there are silly and foolish laws on the books (and even enforced!) here, their existence does not prove or disprove the basis of another law someplace else. In other words, simply because there are stupid laws here doesn't make it okay to have stupid laws someplace else. And yes, the definition of "stupid" is up for debate