Don't Arm Bears

[Sir Krustin]

You people need an education.

1) There was no food out, he was sleeping.

2) The bear was killed because it attacked human beings - and for no other reason.

It's in the lawbooks that ANY dangerous animal - cat, dog, racoon, wolf, or bear - gets terminated after attacking people. It's simple common sense. To do anything else allows animals that do not fear humans to live and continue putting lives in danger.

The fact is, bears unlearn their fear of humans because stupid people FEED them or try to befriend "the nice animals". Once the fear is unlearned, then the bear approaches human settlements and attacks people.

All the bunny and tree-huggers out there need to realize that kill or be-killed is the rule of nature and humans killing bears in self-defence is just as justified as the bear killing the human for food. It's that simple.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Nerull: There are two sad things about that bear story. One was that the bear was killed for simply doing what it does naturally. The second was that the kid got away. Hate to say it, but it would not have disappointed me if he was removed from the gene pool. Not the nicest thought, but the kid messed up and the bear paid the price. Not a fair trade, if you ask me.

I'm not abashed to say that I agree wholeheartedly. Humans are not the most important species on the planet. In fact, being at the 'top' of the so-called 'food web', they are the most expendable.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Sir Krustin: You people need an education. 1) There was no food out, he was sleeping. 2) The bear was killed because it attacked human beings - and for no other reason. It's in the lawbooks that ANY dangerous animal - cat, dog, racoon, wolf, or bear - gets terminated after attacking people. It's simple common sense. To do anything else allows animals that do not fear humans to live and continue putting lives in danger. The fact is, bears unlearn their fear of humans because stupid people FEED them or try to befriend "the nice animals". Once the fear is unlearned, then the bear approaches human settlements and attacks people. All the bunny and tree-huggers out there need to realize that kill or be-killed is the rule of nature and humans killing bears in self-defence is just as justified as the bear killing the human for food. It's that simple.

Well, we are diametrically opposed in our viewpoints then. I say to hell with the self-serving human 'lawbooks'. And to hell with human settlements continually creeping in and destroying the 'natural' habitats of other predators. I'm no pacifist tree-hugger, I fully believe in and accept the disinterested savagery of 'nature' (the definition of which is subjective to every person).

I also believe that the rapid leaps in technology that humans have developed in recent centuries have chronically upset an incredibly delicate natural balance. There is too much destructive power vested within one species. It creates a self-defeating paradox. In the centuries to come, human civilisation will asphixiate on it's own poisonous refuse. You may interpret this as rabid environmentalist rhetoric, but you know, somewhere inside that homo-centrist mind of yours, that there is at least some grain of truth in it. Our species needs to be de-fanged until it is responsible enough to wield it's technological power.

The more humans are discouraged from treating their world like their personal playground, the better. This goes for animal attacks, industrial pollution, obver-fishing, you name it. If the price has to be paid in human lives, well that's just fine.

[promethius9594]

Originally posted by Sir Krustin: You people need an education. 1) There was no food out, he was sleeping.

BZZZT... close, but probably not right. bears can smell anything food which has been opened, and even some products which have not.

What MOST LIKELY happened is that a VERY hungry bear entered the camp for the food that the boy was keeping stuffed in his duffel bag. as a boy scout i learned that the most common mistake people make in animal encounters is failing to place their food in a bear bag, or food box OUTSIDE of their camp.

You see, bears are afraid of humans, as is almost every animal on this planet. It's instinctual, the bear doesnt ever see humans, so it fears us because our eyes point forward and we move quickly and in numbers. HOWEVER, when a large predator is starving (old, wounded, sick, low food supply, raising young) it often will be willing to brave the attempt to get food. once it learns that humans are naturally easy prey it will continue to raid camps and attack humans (savanah lions and tigers have both shown the same traits. most lions which are shot for being man eaters show massive tooth wear and decay indicative of their old age and inability to hunt natural game).

Simply put, the boy screwed up. he didnt do what he was supposed to, but he did get away and thats a GOOD thing. we should never be angered because someone managed not to get killed. The bear, unfortunately, was beyond help, it would have come back again and again, getting more and more bold each time. this is observable nature, it would have happened.

I, however, have a great bear (killing) story if anyone is interested, one that makes that kid look like nothing.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by promethius9594: Simply put, the boy screwed up. he didnt do what he was supposed to, but he did get away and thats a GOOD thing. we should never be angered because someone managed not to get killed. The bear, unfortunately, was beyond help, it would have come back again and again, getting more and more bold each time. this is observable nature, it would have happened. I, however, have a great bear (killing) story if anyone is interested, one that makes that kid look like nothing.

Yeah, well, I'm all for people being eaten. I think the natural weakness of humanity has been offset by the power of their technology, with ecologically disastrous results. The more often people get 'caught' without their guns, the better. I guess that's where you and I differ [img]smile.gif[/img] No shame in that thought. We'll just have to be opponents is all.
And I'm interested in hearing your bear-killing story.

[ 05-01-2004, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[promethius9594]

okay, here goes... being an eagle scout, after my graduation from high school i worked as a P.R. Manager and Inspector for a Boy Scout camp in Northern california. There was this guy named bruce who ran the rifle range, and this guy named bob, who everyone called "the bear."

the bear was an odd name for bob, being as bob was TALL but likewise very thin. not a perfect picture of a bear. but, one night as the staff was working in the lodge, they heard some noises out back, and sure enough, a bear had wandered right through all the scout camp sites directly behind the lodge and was trying to get into the locked trash bin. Bruce went out the front and circled around the bear to head up the hill to the rifle range, where he retrieved the only weapon capable of killing a bear. in the mean time the staff stood on the back deck area of the lodge and yelled (and threw stuff) at the bear to make it leave, but it refused. Bruce came back with the rifle after coming the long way around the bear again. There was one problem though, bruce WAS a great shot, but the bear was still behind the lodge with the scout camps behind it, so that if bruce missed there would be a chance of killing or seriously injuring someone. there was nothing we could do, and it didnt look like the bear was going to leave. it was becoming irritable at not getting the food.

Now, bruce had his gun. bob always carried a one inch bamboo walking stick, he was the woods guide. He takes this walking stick and he puts it against the table and breaks it in half. then he takes his newly made pair of 3 and a half foot bamboo clubs and goes off the back deck, and proceeds to begin HITTING the bear with his sticks. despite the bear getting pissed off and swatting back, bob just keeps dodging and coming back in and wacking the bear pretty damn hard. Slowly the bear backs off, and bob heards it around the front of the lodge. AH, nothing but a giant empty lake right behind the bear.

Bruce takes his shot and puts the bear down in one bullet... a painless death. Of course, as i should have mentioned, there were no bear steaks or claws or furs/carpets. Forestry regulations state that you may shoot a wild animal if it poses a threat to humans, but may not take anything from the carcass as that constitutes poaching. thus, we buried the entire bear, but there will always be a story to tell about bob "the bear" and his fight with a bear.

[The Hierophant]

Well, there's the thing Promethius. What your friend 'Bob' did took balls. It was brave, it was self-sacrificial. The act of fending off the bear with clubs got the job done with minimal impact on the surrounding ecosystem. That's fine. That's almost 'good' even. It was a reasonably even fight, and took a great deal of effort, courage and sweat to carry through to its conclusion. It's when you relatively effortlessly shot the bear later that the scales were tipped unfairly.

And therein lies the problem. Advanced tech gives humans incredible power to kill and destroy at their whim. And because this technology has developed at such a rapid pace, our species hasn't had a chance to biologically dis-evolve its aggressive, opportunistic and selfishly squanderous instincts.

When armed with clubs, people are still very vulnerable. Only the strongest handful of people can make their way through the world and survive. Yet guns allow cowards, weaklings and other socio/genetic 'chaff' to exert incredible destructive power over ecosystems that would otherwise naturally swallow them whole. Which has been my argument along. And that's all it is of course, just my argument/opinion. But I still can't abide the insidious intrusions of the destructive 'civilised', 'quick fix' mindset on more primal habitats. And sometime soon, something is going to have to be done....

[promethius9594]

yes, hierophant,

but wouldnt you say that guns are just another form of a species' strength... i mean, chimps use tools to gather food, but nobody calls that foul play.

since i dont have teeth and claws, nor 500 lbs of pure muscle, then the day the bear doesnt use teeth, claws, or strength against me is the day i MIGHT put down my gun.

finally, time and again the historical record has shown that when a species loses its "aggressive, opportunistic and selfishly squanderous instincts" it quickly becomes extinct. im all for the domination of nature, and if that means no bears, then so be it...

[Arledrian]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: Don't Arm Bears

Badumpbump... love it.

Cool story either way. I'd never be able to punch a bear. One time my uncle's dog leaped up onto my chest and I nearly shat myself. That's enough wrestling with nature for me.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by promethius9594: finally, time and again the historical record has shown that when a species loses its "aggressive, opportunistic and selfishly squanderous instincts" it quickly becomes extinct. im all for the domination of nature, and if that means no bears, then so be it...

So be it. Mind you're a safe distance from the time-bomb when it explodes though.

[ 05-02-2004, 04:50 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]