Italian Minister says let navy shoot at immigrants

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: I have to wonder...What would be the reaction if America seriously consider the policy? I think we would get a far more upset reaction then we are seeing here.

[img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]
First off, I wonder if this post is kinda inflammatory? Here is why... What if you had asked if the reaction would different if President Bush seriously considered the policy? Do you get my point? Big difference between President Bush and America. To put it in perspective: Less than 1/2 of the voting population voted for Bush in 2000, so by those figures, his policies speak for less than half of us.

Maybe I'm just nit-picking, but the way I see it the nature of this thread, and many current event discussions on IW, is about policy, not nationality. Why make it a nationality thing?

Secondly....Why do you think that in the first place? Is it because of the recent worldwide poll showing most the world fears and distrusts America? Do you expect people to be prejudice against Americans here? In a way you are instigating this very prejudice with the wording of your inquiry IMHO.

Anyway...Why is that? Why does alot of the world fear and loath us?

My opinion:
Could it be, possibly... maybe, oh... I dont know...Is it because the geniuses running our goverment show now-a-days have made us feared and loathed world-wide with their actions and words?
I don't blame the rest of the world for being suspicious considering the inflexiable and uncompromising adtitude of our leaders. Perhaps its a matter of looking around our own house before telling our neighbors to clean theirs.

I am saddened that the world has a dim view of my nation, and I am thankful we get to change our goverment every so often, especially when they are destroying our civil liberties and making us feared and loathed around the world.

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] First off, I wonder if this post is kinda inflammatory? Here is why... What if you had asked if the reaction would different if President Bush seriously considered the policy? Do you get my point? Big difference between President Bush and America. To put it in perspective: Less than 1/2 of the voting population voted for Bush in 2000, so by those figures, his policies speak for less than half of us. The final election results were Bush 47.87% and Gore 48.38% (http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm)...So he just edged Bush. Alot has changed since 2000. And, his policies? I am sure you know there is alot longer process of getting things done in goverment matters then saying 'I want this done' and it happens. They are not Bush's policies alone. Maybe I'm just nit-picking, but the way I see it the nature of this thread, and many current event discussions on IW, is about policy, not nationality. Why make it a nationality thing? Well, like I said, they arent Bush's policies alone, so saying 'America' or 'Italy' or 'Germany' or whatever is easy than naming all factors inculded. But I see you point, and its fine by me, as long as you bring it up every time someone uses a country for a politican. Secondly....Why do you think that in the first place? Is it because of the recent worldwide poll showing most the world fears and distrusts America? Do you expect people to be prejudice against Americans here? In a way you are instigating this very prejudice with the wording of your inquiry IMHO. Why do I think what? Why the world would be outraged if American politicans took up the policy? Well thats a pretty loaded question dont you think? I think Bush is going to get people disliking his decions either way. Whatever he does. Why? Well, instead of asking me, why dont you ask the Bushwhackers? Anyway...Why is that? Why does alot of the world fear and loath us? My opinion: Could it be, possibly... maybe, oh... I dont know...Is it because the geniuses running our goverment show now-a-days have made us feared and loathed world-wide with their actions and words? So let me ask you now, why is that? He was fear and called Evil way before the whole Iraq thing started. Why? Hey, he avoided Vietnam right? Why is it people have convinced there selfs Bush is satan or whatever it is they think? Most people I know that have met Bush say he is genuinly a good guy. Even some people I have not met have said that. So why is it he is looked upon as hateful? Because the Operations in Afghistan and Iraq? I suppose Ciltions 'Lets bomb and Asprin factory' policys worked better? Obvisouly not. I don't blame the rest of the world for being suspicious considering the inflexiable and uncompromising adtitude of our leaders. Perhaps its a matter of looking around our own house before telling our neighbors to clean theirs. Looking at our own house indeed. I am saddened that the world has a dim view of my nation, Me too. and I am thankful we get to change our goverment every so often, Me too. especially when they are destroying our civil liberties and making us feared and loathed around the world.

If your stuck (dare I say narrowminded?) in your views that Bush is destorying America and is on a quest to take over the world, I guess I am certaintly not going to change it.

[Indemaijinj]

Sorry if I sound a bit MagiK'esque, but how did this discussion come to be about USA??


The deal is that this policy will never be enacted. Umberto Bossi is a bit of a live wire in the italian government with his somewhat "fascistoid" affiliations. As far as I know he is only tolerated as long as he doesn't mess up too badly and as a media mogul I think Berlusconi knows the basics about bad publicity. Without doubt enough to know that shooting down unarmed civilian craft (especially when their cargo is humans) would result in a public relations nightmare without equal.

Bossi might be an all-round asshat, but Berlusconi at least knows what he is doing.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Indemaijinj: Sorry if I sound a bit MagiK'esque, but how did this discussion come to be about USA??

That's what I was wondering and then I went off on a tangent. Call it a fault of mine, going off on tangents, that is. It reminds me of the time...uh nevermind. I asked some questions and I got some answers. Won't happen again. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Donut]

Originally posted by Indemaijinj: Sorry if I sound a bit MagiK'esque, but how did this discussion come to be about USA??

LOL It's paranoia Jim - but not as we know it!

Originally posted by Indemaijinj: Sorry if I sound a bit MagiK'esque, but how did this discussion come to be about USA?? Geee I don't now if I should be flattered or insulted [img]smile.gif[/img] But I agree witht he question...this isn't about the USA...and Im not sure how what is being being pointed out, is MagiK'esque [img]smile.gif[/img] but I had to laugh. The deal is that this policy will never be enacted. Umberto Bossi is a bit of a live wire in the italian government with his somewhat "fascistoid" affiliations. As far as I know he is only tolerated as long as he doesn't mess up too badly and as a media mogul I think Berlusconi knows the basics about bad publicity. Without doubt enough to know that shooting down unarmed civilian craft (especially when their cargo is humans) would result in a public relations nightmare without equal. Bossi might be an all-round asshat, but Berlusconi at least knows what he is doing. Nice to get some better info on the guy [img]smile.gif[/img] I also noticed no one wanted to pin themselves down by answering my 3 questions posted earlier [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-18-2003, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[lethoso]

"Reuters

Brindisi, Italy- An Albanian refugee boat that sank with the loss of more than 80 lives after a collision with an Italian navy ship was being towed slowly towards shore on Monday after being painstakingly winched off the sea bed.

Police in the southeastern port of Brindisi said they expected the operation to take at least another day and that sea conditions on Sunday had delayed progress.

"It's got 32 miles to go -- it's travelling at about one mile an hour," a spokesman said.

"If conditions are good, we expect it to arrive tomorrow." Conditions on Monday were "not great," he added.

The boat was one of scores of craft which crossed the Adriatic to Italy with an estimated 13,000 Albanians aboard at the height of the unrest that swept Albania in March following the collapse of dubious pyramid savings schemes.

Salvage experts winched the craft onto a special platform at the weekend from where it had been lying 800 metres (2,600 feet) down on the sea bed.

Tirana has said at least 79 Albanians drowned below decks when the boat sank 40 miles offshore on March 28 following a collision with the Italian navy corvette Sibilla.

The navy ship was carrying out orders to persuade Albanian vessels to turn away from Italian waters.

Many of the 34 survivors from the sunken vessel accused the Italians of ramming the boat, an allegation which Italy denies.

Officials stressed it was important to proceed slowly and carefully to ensure that none of the bodies aboard were lost and there was no damage to what remains of the boat, which will be vital evidence in an official inquiry into the tragedy.

"We have to make sure those people who died in such a horrible way have a decent burial," defence undersecretary Massimo Brutti told reporters in Brindisi on Sunday.

The recovery operation began on Saturday afternoon and is expected to cost eight billion lire ($4.6 million).

Italy led a multinational security force to the poor Balkan state to oversee the restoration of communications links and secure elections and last week hosted an international meeting on helping Albania rebuild its shattered economy."

from a few years ago, italian immigration policy is nothing new....

[B_part]

Originally posted by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon: Well, please, Grojlach, don't be too hard on poor Signore Bossi. You see, if my memory serves me correctly, the Italian naval forces have not achieved anything of importance since the days of the Romans and that sad fact must of course irk a proud patriot like Signore Bossi: after they have practiced enough by sinking a couple of hundreds of unarmed and overloaded fishing trawlers carrying equally unarmed illegal immigrants, they will then take on the Maltese navy.

1)You are forgetting some historical facts about italian navy. Like circumnavigating the globe with Magellano, or exploring America with Amerigo Vespucci (Amerigo -> America), or discovering it since Colombo came from Genova. Or, why did the German Emperor and the French king have to ask Venice the ships for every single crusade?

2)Bossi patriot? his party was born with the intent of dividing Italy in two, and he was accused (then acquitted) of offense to the flag... He isn't a patriot.

Also, I don't like your tone. It sounds racist to me.

Edit: some rephrasing to avoid misunderstanding which had arisen

[ 06-18-2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: B_part ]

[B_part]

Originally posted by Indemaijinj: The deal is that this policy will never be enacted.

That is a sure thing. This is not the middle ages, you don't shoot on unarmed people just because they are trying to enter the borders. Nobody, even Bossi, ever thought of that. Well, there are some people who would like the idea, but those live in every country of the world.

Umberto Bossi is a bit of a live wire in the italian government with his somewhat "fascistoid" affiliations. As far as I know he is only tolerated as long as he doesn't mess up too badly and as a media mogul I think Berlusconi knows the basics about bad publicity. Without doubt enough to know that shooting down unarmed civilian craft (especially when their cargo is humans) would result in a public relations nightmare without equal. Bossi might be an all-round asshat, but Berlusconi at least knows what he is doing.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

About Berlusconi knowing what he is doing, I might express some serious doubt [img]smile.gif[/img] . Anyway the whole thing comes from a series of circumstances:

In these days in the governing cohalition there has been a moderate turmoil because of some partial but nevertheless a bit negative results of the local elections. The parties of the cohalition are having a bit of a tug-of-war to estabilish the relative influences on the government decisions. The Northern League, the party of Bossi, has promised its voters a harshest law against illegal immigration: the law is being discussed in the Parliamen in these days and allows the Navy to inspect ships entering the national borders, and also changes the treatment of illegal immigrants. Until now the police wasn't allowed to expel illegal immigrants unless they had committed a crime. With the new law illegal immigrants would be detained a few days in transit structures, then taken forcefully to the border.

The catholic parties of the government cohalition have strongly objected against this law. So, either Bossi wanted to provoke a reaction and he said those things, or he said them as a joke and the journalist, sensing the scoop, willingly misunderstood them.


As to the sunk ship mentioned two posts above, it wasn't really a ship (otherwise the victims would have been in the hundreds), but a fast inflatable. Albanian criminals used and use those to shuttle illegal immigrants through the Otranto channel. Imagine 60 people on a 12 / 14 meter inflatable, runnign at 120 km/h and trying to evade the interceptors. It's a common tactic by those bastards to try and ram the police boats, or even throw immigrants overboard to force the pursuers to stop and rescue them. That's what happened that sad day. Nobody shot or rammed the boat on purpose. Although a mistake might have been made when maneuvering the corvette.

[ 06-18-2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: B_part ]

[Ramon de Ramon y Ramon]

Lol, breathe, please: if I unintentionally hurt your patriotic feelings, I apologize. Actually, my intention was not to ridicule Italy, but Signore Bossi who well deserved that IMNSHO for the callousness with which he tried to polish his "law-and-order" image at the expense of both defenseless refugees and the more gullible parts of the Italian public: I am utterly convinced that Bossi knew throughout the whole media drama that his "demand" never had any chance of becoming actual politics. Those complelety unsubstantiated "tough stance" posturing antics are of course not an exclusively Italian phenomenon but rather a very common image maneuver of right wing populists all over the world. They are a political pet peeve of mine and deserve nothing but ridicule.

And while I am sure that your knowledge about the details of Italian politics exceeds mine, I am well aware that Signore Bossi's party, Lega Nord, started out as a separatist movement of those people in Northern Italy who were fed up with what they perceived as decade long misgovernment at the national level in Rome and who felt shortchanged over the fact that an excessive portion of their tax money was used to subsidize the far poorer southern regions of the country. And in a sense, I see Bossi still appealing to similar sentiments with his latests statements: those who oppose solidarity within the own nation-state are probably even more far likely to do so on an international level, e.g. share some of your national wealth with foreign refugees.

At least we have two things in common: your notion of patriotism is just as foreign to me as mine is to you and I don't like your tone, either.

So, maybe the next time before you come blazing in here determined to defend your national honour you might want to check first if it was indeed under attack. Educating people about the details and complexities of own's country and culture is a very worthy cause though, which, of course, can also entail correcting misconceptions. But a teacher needs to be dispassionate enough not to take everything that others get wrong as a personal insult and "screaming" and "insulting" does not tend to make your audience any more perceptive. So, what is more important to you, your message (e.g. being an ambassador for your country in an environment where very few know much about it) or the emotional kick (righteous indignation feels so good, doesn't it?)? See, sometimes being a "good patriot" can require a lot more than the intellectual equivalent of flag-waving. Believe me, I know what I am talking about as I have been, more or less, the only German regular here for quite some time.