Newest Hamas leader killed

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Um, everywhere? As far as I'm aware Jews are perfectly welcome here in New Zealand at least. Same with Muslims, Catholics, Presbyterians, Atheists etc etc..... although if the National party (read, the NZ version of the 'Republican' party) win the next election you can bet a good ol' dose of right-wing xenophobia is going to find it's way into official government immigration policy. It's already starting to creep in there. A bit worrisome really.

You are aware that "Jew" denotes a race as well as a faith? You mentioned religions but not races in your list of peoples accepted in New Zealand. Why is that? The racial element is the predominant factor in giving the Jewish RACE a nation where they can practice their national FAITH without oppression.

In fact. it is precisely BECAUSE they have had no state, that the faith has become intrinsically tied to race. If a male Jew leaves the faith, they may very well marry outside the race and thus their decendents leave the Jewish nation forever. Who knows how many people of Jewish descent are floating around, absorbed into the myriad nationalities that they Jews lived inside.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by dplax: quote: Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by Black Baron: Well, Hierophant, we are certainly not welcome in europe, russia and gasp! arabic states. [img]tongue.gif[/img] The holocaust happened because jews had no place to go, and europe did not allow them to emmigrate. (Evian conference). In order to ensure that it will never happen again, we must have state. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now you're making the same mistake as a lot of Americans often do, you're mentioning Europeans as if it's one people under one rule. i know for a fact that in many european countries Jews ARE welcome, and always were. There are large Jewish communities in amsterdam and antwerp. In WW2, a lot of common Dutch citizens put their lifes on the line by giving shelter throughout the occupation to entire Jewish families, who would have been deported if they hadn't done that. I don't know where you get the idea that Jews aren't welcome here, but it's a big misconception. [/QUOTE]And there are still a hundred thousand jews in Hungary (the biggest jewish minority in Europe). [/QUOTE]Who because of communist immigration prohibition, wre unable to leave, as per Barons original statement.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Yorick: You are aware that "Jew" denotes a race as well as a faith? You mentioned religions but not races in your list of peoples accepted in New Zealand. Why is that? The racial element is the predominant factor in giving the Jewish RACE a nation where they can practice their national FAITH without oppression.

Well, I wasn't thinking racially, no. Mainly because I have a bad habit of looking at all people as people, rather than as individual races [img]smile.gif[/img] In fact I don't agree with the largely arbitrary and subjective concept of race in general.
That's the whole point. I consider myself to be of the same 'race' as every other human critter on the planet. The only viable differentiations between groups for me are cultural ones, not physical/genetic. But that's me, you by no means have to think the same way.

Also, whilst 'traditional' Maori do feel a spiritual connection to the land, by and large, their culture also makes them free to travel and establish family connections with tribes in other locations. They have been no strangers to emmigration in the past, both before and after European contact. On a geographical level, Sydney isn't all that far away from Aotearoa at all, so it's not far to travel. When the European-imposed National boundaries of Polynesia (East Australia and NZ included) are forgotten for a second, tribal emmigration makes alot more sense.

[ 04-21-2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Black Baron: Well, Hierophant, we are certainly not welcome in europe, russia and gasp! arabic states. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Do you know that? I mean, have you tested that theory out for yourself? I'm not getting at you, I'm genuinely wondering. Because if it's true, and you (not your ancestors, but you) have been made to feel unwelcome in Europe, Russia, and gasp! the arabic states then that's a damn shame. Still, don't imprison yourself just because of the small-minded prejudices of other people. By all means enjoy the land you're living in now, but don't think you're unwelcome anywhere else because it just isn't true.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: You are aware that "Jew" denotes a race as well as a faith? You mentioned religions but not races in your list of peoples accepted in New Zealand. Why is that? The racial element is the predominant factor in giving the Jewish RACE a nation where they can practice their national FAITH without oppression.

Well, I wasn't thinking racially, no. Mainly because I have a bad habit of looking at all people as people, rather than as individual races [img]smile.gif[/img] In fact I don't agree with the largely arbitrary and subjective concept of race of in general.
That's the whole point. I consider myself to be of the same 'race' as every other human critter on the planet. The only viable differentiations between groups for me are cultural ones, not physical/genetic. But that's me, you by no means have to think the same way.

Also, whilst 'traditional' Maori do feel a spiritual connection to the land, by and large, their culture also makes them free to travel and establish family connections with tribes in other locations. They have been no strangers to emmigration in the past, both before and after European contact. On a geographical level, Sydney isn't all that far away from Aotearoa at all, so it's not far to travel. When the European-imposed National boundaries of Polynesia (East Australia and NZ included) are forgotten for a second, tribal emmigration makes alot more sense. [/QUOTE]I gree with all that, but we do come from new nations where multiculturalism is encouraged, endorsed and valued, and where differences are celebrated, without the weight of death and destruction tied to the loss of national identity.

I have had this discussion with African Americans here, and the comeback has been that it's easy for me - part of the majority caucasian group, which is able to assert it's values and culture simply by being a majority. National identity becomes more important to a minority group, for the prospect of the way they do things - language, culture, music, art - can potentially die and forever disappear. Obviously this causes much grief to Maoris who see their tribes dwindle, as the healthiest males leave for other nations.

It's tied into mortality I believe. Knowing that your culture could die, increases awaereness of your own limited tenure on the planet. It increases the awareness that everything you are, everything you strive so hard to achieve, is meaningless when it disappears under the sands of time, or simply once you've passed on.

In any case, I'm simply saying, it's easy for you and I to go on about the brotherhood of the human race, because of the nations we're in, and who we are within that.

For an Armenian, unable to travel to his national icon, Mt. Ararat, (25 miles away) because Turks (who massacred 1.5 million Armenians they ruled in 1913) refuse to let him cross the border.

Race and nation become more important then. If Armenia ruled the PLACE around Ararat, they would be able to enjoy the PLACE they are excluded from. Simply because they were born to the wrong parents, on the wrong side of the river, in the wrong time.

When I was reading about the Armenians plight, I actually thought - "why not just move to New Zealand?"

But then Australia and New Zealand are now tougher on immigration than before.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Black Baron: Well, Hierophant, we are certainly not welcome in europe, russia and gasp! arabic states. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Do you know that? I mean, have you tested that theory out for yourself? I'm not getting at you, I'm genuinely wondering. Because if it's true, and you (not your ancestors, but you) have been made to feel unwelcome in Europe, Russia, and gasp! the arabic states then that's a damn shame. Still, don't imprison yourself just because of the small-minded prejudices of other people. By all means enjoy the land you're living in now, but don't think you're unwelcome anywhere else because it just isn't true. [/QUOTE]He is correct Heirophant. He would not be able to step foot in Saudi Arabia for example. At all. Jews simply cannot visit many Muslim nations. If you've just been to Israel, you may be denied entry to Indonesia or Malaysia for example. I've had to fill out forms saying I have NOT been to Israel.

The same goes with India and Pakistan. Travel is restricted there. If you go to one, you have a harder time getting in the other. I know Indians who've been arrested as they've attempted to cross into Pakistan.

the aforementioned Armenia has closed borders with Turkey, and Azerbaijan.

There are many parts of the world, where who you are dictates whether or not you can travel there. Baron is correct in his assessment of things unfortunately.

[Alson]

Interesting thread. I would like chime in and provide the interested reader with the perspective of an "insider", so to say.

First, for objectivity's sake, a few disclaimers; First, I am not a religious person, so I couldn't care less about the so-called "promised land". I could not phrase Hierophant's words better; What causes one to sacrifice one's life quality on the alter of territory is beyond me. Second, unlike Black Baron, I don't believe force will settle the conflict, and I vehemently object any unnecessary killing. However, I do agree that the assassinations policy serves Israel's (and the Palestinians'!) best interests on the short term, and that is the safety of its citizens.

As for the assassinations of terrorist leaders: It is by no means a new concept. Back at 1972, when 11 Israeli athletes were murdered by terrorists, all the leaders of the "Black September" organization were assassinated, one by one. As far as I can see it, taking out the leaders serves two purposes: The first one is pragmatical and self-evident: You cut off the snake's head, and it can't bite you no more. Growing a new head takes time and efforts, it's not always as dangerous, and it can be cut, too. The second one is less trivial, but is even more important: Intimidation. Israel has learned from experience: Terrorist leaders are afraid to die (oh, bitter irony ). Israel is sending a clear message: Terrorist leaders are dead men walking. As one journalist here phrased it: "More and more dead, less and less walking".

I believe Israel has the means to deal with the Hamas organization. Not flawlessly, but it has. But the Hamas is only a small part of a huge terror network that threatens the world. Together, Israel and the U.S. are leading the fight against it. According to many military experts, a few more attacks on european targets will be enough to create a public pressure of the europeans on their politicians, making them realize the threat they face. I just hope it won't be, indeed, post factum.

Fianlly, I'd like to (carefully) approach the "Palestinians want to kill Jews" issue. As a generalizaion (as it was meant to be), it is in my opinion 100% percent true, I'm with T.L. on this one. However, I'm the reason is more important, here. It is my opinion that Islam has nothing to do with it by now. Not even Jihad. A much more dangerous feeling is involved: jingoism. That's an enemy that none of our most advances Air-to-Ground missiles can deal with; I'm not sure what can.

Thank you for reading.

[Yorick]

What a great post Alson. Thanks very much for your contribution.

I can't believe you've got 2196 posts here and I've never read you.... so hello.

Be safe

Yorick.

[Timber Loftis]

You've just not been in the BGII forum enough, I suspect, Yorick.

[Black Baron]

Well Hierophant, we emmigrated from russia because we had too much of swastica painted in our neighborhood. In France there are more and more attacks on local jews, and the late "anthisemethism report" of EU clarifies my point even more.
Especially the fact that the EU tried to put it into archive rather than to learn it or publish it.