Newest Hamas leader killed

[Stratos]

Who knows, some of them might have escaped and their descendents might still be around.

My point was that there are so many people around the World that originally owned a piece of land, but doesn't anymore, and giving Israel back to the Jews on the sole basis of that they once owned it is overall not a good arguments.

I'm all for the state of Israel, giving Jews their own nation was the most sensible thing to do after WW2, but I also recognice the Palestinians point of view; they have lived there for several generations and feel it's their land. A land that they feel is being taken from them by someone else who just happened to own it a long time ago.

[ 04-21-2004, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Yorick: What other Jewish state do Jews go to? Where else in the world is there for them to go?

Um, everywhere? As far as I'm aware Jews are perfectly welcome here in New Zealand at least. Same with Muslims, Catholics, Presbyterians, Atheists etc etc..... although if the National party (read, the NZ version of the 'Republican' party) win the next election you can bet a good ol' dose of right-wing xenophobia is going to find it's way into official government immigration policy. It's already starting to creep in there. A bit worrisome really.

Honestly, if you want to evade the trap that self-identified Israelis and Palestinians have fallen into then simply renounce your psychological ties with any particular stretch of land. Works for me. I'm at home wherever I go, no matter how many small-minded humans try to tell me that the land 'belongs' to them.

[ 04-21-2004, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[johnny]

LOL Aaron, so you're a tresspasser then. Exactly how many times did you get shot at, and how many times you got bitten by a Doberman Pincher ? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by johnny: LOL Aaron, so you're a tresspasser then. Exactly how many times did you get shot at, and how many times you got bitten by a Doberman Pincher ? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

'course I'm a trespasser [img]smile.gif[/img] Been chased a few times. But I can run fast when I want, so it's ok. And I know how to kill dogs hand-to-hand, so we're ok in that department too, so long as they don't get my throat [img]smile.gif[/img]

Havn't been shot at though, as hardly anyone in NZ has a gun due to our gun control laws

Now, I realise the situation in NZ is infinately different than in many other regions as we have so many open miles of totally unsettled wilderness, so there's plenty of room for roaming. However, my point is that land just really isn't worth killing over. The concept of property is a psychological trap, an unfortunate by-product of the settled, 'civilised' lifestyle. You can have access to objects, you can have territory that you frequent, but you can never own anything. And when people fool themselves into thinking that they actually *can* own things it can drive them on to do some pretty disgusting things... [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img]

[ 04-21-2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Timber Loftis]

The native Americans were the effective owners of the North American continent until they were displaced, does that mean that they have a right to kick out all non-natives? Of course not, so don't quote the incorrect Jews were there first bit - that's a debatable part of history, since these claims arise before records began and are thus based upon belief rather than cold facts.

Skunk, I'd like you to take this argument and point it right back at your own statements regarding Palestine and the Israeli occupation. In discussing the fact that 100% of the Palestinian lands would not be returned, you were incensed -- got really uppity. Now, you have written the perfect rebuttal to your arguments then. So, either you were wrong then, or you are wrong now. Take your pick.

Now, think twice before you try to wriggle out of this contradiction conundrum -- because I think I know how you'll try to do it, and I'm ready.

[Black Baron]

Well, Hierophant, we are certainly not welcome in europe, russia and gasp! arabic states. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

The holocaust happened because jews had no place to go, and europe did not allow them to emmigrate. (Evian conference).

In order to ensure that it will never happen again, we must have state. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[johnny]

Originally posted by Black Baron: Well, Hierophant, we are certainly not welcome in europe, russia and gasp! arabic states. [img]tongue.gif[/img] The holocaust happened because jews had no place to go, and europe did not allow them to emmigrate. (Evian conference). In order to ensure that it will never happen again, we must have state. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now you're making the same mistake as a lot of Americans often do, you're mentioning Europeans as if it's one people under one rule. i know for a fact that in many european countries Jews ARE welcome, and always were. There are large Jewish communities in amsterdam and antwerp. In WW2, a lot of common Dutch citizens put their lifes on the line by giving shelter throughout the occupation to entire Jewish families, who would have been deported if they hadn't done that. I don't know where you get the idea that Jews aren't welcome here, but it's a big misconception.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Skunk: Your forgetting that very insignificant event called WORLD WAR TWO and the treaties and conventions that the world has since signed. Yes, in barbaric times we performed barbaric acts but it has NO relevance to today.

It certainly has relevence if the CONSEQUENCES of those actions are still in effect buddy. You can cite treaties all you like, but they don't negate the genocide, imperialism, displacement and the like that your people have inflicted on the planet Skunk. Still relevent because the consequences continue to this day.

Tell an Ainu, Lapp, Sioux, Koori, Aztec, Inca, Bantu, Armenian or Jew, that the actions of the past aren't responsible for their predicament today.

In any case you exhibit selective reasoning, because the modern Israeli state was established by your so-called nonbarbaric post WWII treaties. No relevence?

In C17th I could accuse someone of withcraft and have them burned at the stake because I KNEW that they were a witch - try doing that now and for some reason society will not accept your actions.

But you can accuse someone of being a terrorist. A few years ago you could accuse someone of being a communist in America with similar effect. Or a Christian in Russia. Tell David Hicks that accusations alone don't incarcerate a person.

The word is all that's changed, not the method.

In the early C19th century, I would have had no problem owning slaves in Georgia - for some reason, it is banned now - why is that? Have we become more enlightened?

Slavery still exists. It's called insupportable debt and chemical addictions in the first world, and sweatshops in the third. Again, exploitation hasn't been eradicated. It's simply morphed it's form.

The native Americans were the effective owners of the North American continent until they were displaced, does that mean that they have a right to kick out all non-natives? Of course not, so don't quote the incorrect Jews were there first bit - that's a debatable part of history, since these claims arise before records began and are thus based upon belief rather than cold facts.

If the United States/United Nations gave Native Americans Long Island as an autonomous zone, then yes they would have the right to kick out non natives, as PRECEDENTED, by the Aboriginal Arnhemlanders actions in Australia, with the full support of the Australian government.

As to "debateable history" it's very very very clear and established history. No big secret. Arabs arrived circa 600AD, supplanting the Jews as the majority population through warfare. Records existed well before then boyo. Rome, Greece, Assyria, Babylon, Persia. They had these little things called census, writing, and record keeping which PROVES a Jewish majority in the area well before any of those mentioned attempted to subjegate and rule the area. You might do well to read up even a little bit of history before attempting the incorrect assertion that there is no evidence the Jews were there first.

Then you might think about checking that "debateable" piece of information-gathering called archaeology, thousands of findings which support, not only the Bible's historical books, but also the historical works of the numerous other civilsations that interracted with the Jewish Kingdoms of history.

Personally, I have a religous book that proves that I am descended from the Homo habilis man that came to the uninabited region from Africa before the jews or arabs and that therefore I am the rightful owner of all lands in the middle east. MY claims do, afterall, pre-date Jews and Arabs by approximately 1.7 million years - so I am clearly within my rights to claim my property back. Oh, and the book also goes on to describe how my ancestors evolved into Mongoloids over the course of 1.7 million years and that when my people arrived in North America 17,000 years ago, there was no-one else there. Clearly then, I have the strongest claim for all of the lands of the North American continent too.

See above. You might want to check your facts before presuming the religious laws in the Torah are the only claim Jews have to prehabitation.

Bear in mind you get all your early Arabic history from "religious" works. As with Timbers statements, re. origins, you have double standards with historical works of a spiritual tone.

[ 04-21-2004, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Black Baron: Well, Hierophant, we are certainly not welcome in europe, russia and gasp! arabic states. [img]tongue.gif[/img] The holocaust happened because jews had no place to go, and europe did not allow them to emmigrate. (Evian conference). In order to ensure that it will never happen again, we must have state. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I wholeheartedly agree. Notwithstanding the admirable Dutch efforts, Europeans have treated Gypsies and Jews with abominably scant regard for their human rights. Russian Jews have only recently been allowed to leave.

You find a simpathiser over here. I will unashamedly fly the flag of the Jew, the Romany (Gypsie), the Armenian, the Irish. All peoples of DIASPORA. The Gypsies are the only one without a state now, but the others all have far greater numbers OUTSIDE their states than in.

Actually Heirophant, we could almost include the Aotearoan Maori to that list, as there are more Maoris in Sydnay alone, than in New Zealand.

[dplax]

Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by Black Baron: Well, Hierophant, we are certainly not welcome in europe, russia and gasp! arabic states. [img]tongue.gif[/img] The holocaust happened because jews had no place to go, and europe did not allow them to emmigrate. (Evian conference). In order to ensure that it will never happen again, we must have state. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now you're making the same mistake as a lot of Americans often do, you're mentioning Europeans as if it's one people under one rule. i know for a fact that in many european countries Jews ARE welcome, and always were. There are large Jewish communities in amsterdam and antwerp. In WW2, a lot of common Dutch citizens put their lifes on the line by giving shelter throughout the occupation to entire Jewish families, who would have been deported if they hadn't done that. I don't know where you get the idea that Jews aren't welcome here, but it's a big misconception. [/QUOTE]And there are still a hundred thousand jews in Hungary (the biggest jewish minority in Europe).