Newest Hamas leader killed

[johnny]

Originally posted by Yorick: You forgot the Australians Johnny.... Why does everyone forget the bloody Aussies!!!

I included them with the Brits, my bad.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Black Baron: Vaanunu broke a law, and had to be judged in israel. How would we brought him here? He by himself did not want to return here. .

In the UK we have these things called "extradition treaties". They help to avoid these little problems that occur between civilised nations.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: The same way you justify any action -- you look at the facts. If the Mossad is going into a country and kidnapping civilians to hold hostage and make demands, we call that terrorism. If they are going in to grab people who are wanted for crimes so they can take them to Israel and try them, we call that capture. People keep making this mistake on these forums. The act itself is not all you look at in judging things. If the US bombs a building in Fallujah that contains a cell of insurgents, it is fighting the enemy. When the insurgents responds by bombing the streets of Basra, it's an attack on civilians -- that's called terrorism.

Nonsense - kidnapping is illegal in Italy! Let the Mossad agents be extradited to face trial.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by johnny: They were positively identified by the best secret servicemen on this planet. Not a single judge could have brought better justice upon them than the Mossad did.

In a democracy you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and are judged and sentenced in a court of law.
In a facist state, you are guilty if a government official thinks you are and are sentenced to death/imprisonment without judicial recourse.

Originally posted by Yorick: "Innocent" and "not convicted guilty" are very different. They weren't tried and convicted, but that doesn't mean they were innocent.

Nor does it make them guilty. Ahmed Bouchikhi wasn't guilty and he was sentenced to death by a terrorist bullet in front of his pregnant wife - by Mossad.

Originally posted by Yorick: The KGB murdered millions of the citizens it was protecting Skunk. Mossad has killed far, far less people who are harming/have harmed it's citizens. Huge difference between the two. One is doing it's job, the other is abusing those it should protect.

The KGB did not murder millions - oh not the I-was-educated-by-Hollywood brigade, please!
In any event murdering one person or ten people makes no difference - it's still MURDER.

Originally posted by Black Baron: About weapon supplying. It is what it is. I sell weapons and i do not care what they will be used for. It is ugly, illegal, nasty etc. It is not terrorism. Remember all of these organizations are knee deep in ****. They have to do it sometimes in order to achieve their goals. To claim that everyone should have white and clean hands is absurd.

Oh REALLY???
So if Iran supplies Hamas with arms, guns, rockets and explosives, it is not terrorism? Well, that's quite a policy swing for you. I'll let Iran know that they can begin filling orders immediately

Originally posted by Johnny: On June 5 1944, American, British, and Canadian terrorists landed ILLEGALLY on the beaches of Normandie, France. Never did they ask the Axis permission to land on said beaches. Also the American 82nd and 101st airborne terrorists, together with the British 6th airborne terrorists were dropped illegally on keypositions inland to cut off Axis supply and reinforcement routes. Something like that ?

Shhhh! I'll let you into a little secret (but don't tell anyone because it's a big secret) - the lawful governments in exile approved of the invasion before it took place...

Originally posted by Black Baron: Sometimes no conviction is nessesary. Ben Laden, Rantisi, and all of their ilk were not found guilty before any court. Yet we hunt and kill them.

Daniel Pearl was believed to have been working as a spy for US 'intelligence' and executed without a conviction. I doubt if his widow would share your thoughts on the lack of need for a trial. You are advocating the implementation of a world police state, where innocence is varies as to whether those who judge happen to be in a good mood.

When a state actively engages in terrorism, the 'other side' responds in kind. Look at the mess Israel is in at the moment, take a peek at the 'pacific' state of affairs in Iraq and Afghanisan and take a hard look at the monster that acting outside of the law creates. It ain't pretty.

[Black Baron]

Skunk-I agree that iranian supplies of weaponry are not a terroristic act. That they send people to kill jews is one however.

Please clarify the "KGB did not kill millions" point. My father's uncle was a KGB general (he questioned Rykov, so he was a big guy. His name was Naum Kaganovich, if i am not mistaken) that quit in the thirties due to the vileness of the job.
While i am not proud of that genealogy part, i state it in order to explain that i have some rather serious info, except books, films etc. He lived till the eighties and told us quite a lot.
I know pretty well that kgb in all its incarnations is/was responsible for the death of millions. Of course Stalin/Lenin did give the orders, but they did not issue it per each person, except in special cases. So KGB is responsible.
As it happens i almost finish my 1-st degree in history of WW2 where my main point of research is operation Barbarossa. Due to the fact i also had to study Nazi history and history of USSR. If you persist with your point (provided that i understood you correctly in the first place ), i would like to debate on it.

I do not understand- USA and EU are a facist countries? Ben laden was not exactly tried.

According to your view, i can kill someone and escape to a country which will protect me. Therefore i will be immune to everything, since my capture by the state where i commited a crime is illigal.


Donut-The point of "kidnapping" was to keep that thing quiet. We simply failed in that, but it is another story. While the act was probably illegal, it is not terrorism.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Black Baron: I do not understand- USA and EU are a facist countries? Ben laden was not exactly tried.

I can't speak for the US, but EU countries (with the possbile exception of the UK) are actively attempting to arrest anyone accused of terrorism with a view to trying them in a court of law or handing them over to countries which seek their extradition. They are not engaging in wanton acts of murder, nor are they planning on murdering suspects and neither are they engaged in the violation of the sovereignty of peaceful democratric nations.

Bin Laden, should he ever be foolish enough to enter the EU would be arrested and handed over to the US (providing that the US guarantees a fair trial - not a military tribunal).

As for the UK, the current Prime Minister is a very shady charactor - like Sharon he has (*cough*) experienced personal finanical irregularities and taken the country to war despite receiving legal advice warning him that the action was contrary to international law. With him at the helm, it's hard to say what the UK would do with OBL - Blair has already killed more than three times as many people as OBL, so what's one more?


[ 04-26-2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Donut]

Originally posted by Yorick: You forgot the Australians Johnny.... Why does everyone forget the bloody Aussies!!!

Would that be because they weren't there?

[Black Baron]

Skunk-These countries never experienced a "suspect" that his capture will most surely cost lives of the captors. Or a more than 10 terroristic acts per year. When they will face 10 terroristic acts per month, then we will see how quick they will stop using such a policy.
UK excluded.

We also try to capture terrorists alive. Except of the "sharks" though. The "little fish" recieves a relativly fair trial.

How we were to capture rantisi? Or how are we to capture ben laden alive? This is all good and well in theory but in practice it is impossible. Ben laden will not enter EU and short of killing him, there is no way of bringing him to justice.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Black Baron: Ben laden will not enter EU and short of killing him, there is no way of bringing him to justice.

And that is the problem. It's warfare. All extradition treaties, trials etc are are human arrangements. This talk of "legal" and "illegal" is all a bit moot. Who's law are we using? International law? What is that? Who made that up? Did Afgahnistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, American etc all agree to laws imposed on them by the international community?

And why does China and India have one vote each in the UN, and yet Denmark and Norway each have a vote. 2 nations of a billion odd = 1 each, 2 nations of 3 mill odd = 1 vote each.

So much for democracy.

And where is democracy? What nation is truly Democratic? Iceland althing was the only true democracy. Certainly international laws and policies are made by a powerful few. Look at the European Union. A policy decided by Bismark-like politicians, and then pushed upon a, for many years, unwilling populace. "We will convince the people" rather than "we will follow the will of the people". Exhibit A. the rise of nationalism and autonomy voices in Flanders, Corsica, Scotland, Sweden (anti-Turk) Poland (anti-Deutsch) etc etc etc.

So we have a "rogue" state Israel - rogue under whose definition? It was created by the UN, by international law. Terrorists and enemies of Israel are thumbing their nose at international law. Yet, these same people, will acuse Israel of breaking international law in chasing down enemies of their state in an effort to fulfill their RIGHT under international law to protect itself from harm.

Legal rights are reserved for citizens within a nation. Those rights do not extend universally, but are created by a set of humans, for a set of humans. All subjective, all relative. When someone like Bin Laden operates outside the law of a number of nations, how can we expect "the usual" treatment to occur?

Where were the voices of defense for Salmun Rushdie? Who defended the right to freedom when it was taken from him by the Ayatollah Khomeni's death mark. Was that not the fingers of one nations laws and values encroaching over international boundaries in complete disregard for the differences of law in various boundaries?

I see a mess. I see double standards, I see dodgy measurements of justice, law, and judgement. Let's look at the picture with honest appraisal with as little prejudged bias as possible hey?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Skunk: In a democracy you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and are judged and sentenced in a court of law. In a facist state, you are guilty if a government official thinks you are and are sentenced to death/imprisonment without judicial recourse.

That's like calling an egg yolk a banana simply because it's yellow. One attribute out of many doesn't make something a certain thing.


FASCISM:
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

DEMOCRACY:
government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

Originally posted by Skunk Nor does it make them guilty. Ahmed Bouchikhi wasn't guilty and he was sentenced to death by a terrorist bullet in front of his pregnant wife - by Mossad.

I'm sure the athletes and victims of terrorism had wives and children also. They were sentenced to death despite being innocent. Where is your righteous anger for their deaths? If Ahmed indeed killed, then he can hardly cry foul.

Originally posted by Skunk The KGB did not murder millions - oh not the I-was-educated-by-Hollywood brigade, please! In any event murdering one person or ten people makes no difference - it's still MURDER.

It is historical fact that Stalin killed more Russians than were killed in WWII. And you can keep send your "hollywood" insult right back to yourself. Flamer. The difference between murdering one person, and murdering millions is the lives themselves. Surely that is obvious. You can wipe out an entire race, culture and people if you kill millions. The damage escalates in horrificness with every life taken. The amount of people dead is extremely important.

Again, why are you not decrying the murder the terrorists engaged in. Who tried these victims? Your sense of justice is very one eyed Skunk.

Originally posted by Skunk: So if Iran supplies Hamas with arms, guns, rockets and explosives, it is not terrorism? Well, that's quite a policy swing for you. I'll let Iran know that they can begin filling orders immediately

No it's not terrorism. It's called selling arms. It is vile in itself, but it is not terrorism. You seem to have a problem with the definition of terrorism Skunk. As I've said. You simply weaken the word.

quote: Originally posted by Johnny: On June 5 1944, American, British, and Canadian terrorists landed ILLEGALLY on the beaches of Normandie, France. Never did they ask the Axis permission to land on said beaches. Also the American 82nd and 101st airborne terrorists, together with the British 6th airborne terrorists were dropped illegally on keypositions inland to cut off Axis supply and reinforcement routes. Something like that ?

Shhhh! I'll let you into a little secret (but don't tell anyone because it's a big secret) - the lawful governments in exile approved of the invasion before it took place...
[/QUOTE]Lawful government in exile? Which ones? Whose laws? The French govt was UNLAWFUL under Vichy and Nazi Laws. You're applying objective absolutes to subjective relativism. Need I remind you Hitler was ELECTED into German parliament, and took power LEGALLY in Germany. Legality had nothing to do with anything. The French people surrendered. If you were in the French resistence, you were breaking laws. If you invaded France and Germany, you broke international laws. Rather than accept this you try and twist things unrecognisably around to find some legality for war?

All is fair in love and war. War is an offense to the human race. How do you enforce what is fair and right in a circumstance that completely overrides humanity. Were war to have followed laws, armies would still be lining up to shoot rounds at each other in alternating turns.

Originally posted by Skunk When a state actively engages in terrorism, the 'other side' responds in kind. Look at the mess Israel is in at the moment, take a peek at the 'pacific' state of affairs in Iraq and Afghanisan and take a hard look at the monster that acting outside of the law creates. It ain't pretty. [/QB]

Ah... Israel retaliates Skunk. follow the thread back to the Arabic invasion and you will find who the instigators have ever been.

[ 04-27-2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]