Flags

[wellard]

Sovereign by my dictionary means (adj) possessing supreme (political) power.

I am not sure that any of those examples fit that definition Yorick. Take Queensland for example a separate country until federation in 1901 when it joined the commonwealth of Australia. It used to have its own army and govern its own borders now it still has its own parliament and makes most of its own laws but is now only a state. No one in Queensland would now say in answer to what country do you come from, anything other than Australia. I’m sure that many of the states in the U.S.A are the same.

I am asking however how can one area be two countries. We have the UK of GB and NI with its government in London and flag flying proudly outside the united nations speaking for and protecting the land from the Shetland isles to the Isle of man and from lands end to Southend. The British army, navy, air force ECT.

Where as the concept of England, apart from beating proudly in the heart of anyone who was born there is harder in my opinion to track down. Where is the government of England? If you say parliament house, then what of the Scottish and welsh and NI mp’s? How can they from a foreign land vote in affairs of the English.

Now it may be that I am wrong and there is no such thing as a country of Great Britain or it maybe the case of there being two countries for the price of one, maybe someone can explain?

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by Leonis: Australia's not a country, we're incontinent a continent. And we're an Ireland island too. Guess this makes us part of the fed up nation federation... Edit: Or are we actually a part of The Rhythm Nation? The urination perhaps? Now there's a notion.

Last I heard Australasia was incontinent. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Charlie]

Originally posted by wellard: quote “You are charlie whether you like it or not from the UK of GB and NI !”

Yes, I'd agree with that in part. Not entirely sure how I can be from the UK of GB.......... and NI at the same time, there's a rather large expanse of water between us....The mind boggles.
I am an Englishman born in England. England, a seperate country that makes up part of a United Kingdom of seperate countries that is known collectively as Great Britain.

Charlie after several rereads of my post and your thread. I agree that this could be seen as inflammatory. That is not the way it was intended and I apologise for they way it was worded. The thoughts going through my mind at the time was... How can England and Great Britain both be countries at the same time? So that should have been the way I put it.

Forget the political crap, Great Britain is not an individual country as you well know.

“I do not mean to upset you but just to discuss the issue”

Nope you do mean to upset me. The topic was regarding the ENGLISH flag and those of my neighbouring countries. You have attempted at every turn to make me accept and be proud of my Britishness over my Englishness. You have told me that I'm not English and that my country doesn't exist. Your opening gambit in your above quoted post once again attempts to tell me that I'm not an Englishman.
You have turned the flag thread into a political debacle as opposed to one of who recognises which flag for what. Your attempted discussion is of no real relevance here.

Patriotism is a touchy subject and I hope we can continue to discuss this topic calmly as I find it fascinating (so why did I not follow my own advice )

Again, I agree patriotism is touchy. If after 4 pages you still haven't grasped that I'm not going to allow you to make me accept that being British over English is a good thing then you really have lost the plot. It isn't, in fact it's a very bad thing. We were not discussing patriotism per se, we were discussing the recognition of flags and the country they represented.

Once again a sincere and full apology [img]smile.gif[/img]

Completely accepted and apologies if I was harsh. [img]smile.gif[/img]

SO…. how can England and Great Britain both be countries at the same time?

They aren't, they never were. Forget the politicisms.

charlie ]http://www.rootsweb.com/~mosmd/flags.htm[/URL] This paragraph mentions the Cross of St George flag as opposed to the Union flag. In 1707, England and Wales united with Scotland to form the Kingdom of Great Britain. With the union, England ceased to be sovereign nation (although retaining its identity as a distinct division of Great Britain. The St. George's Cross flag continued to serve as England's distinct flag--a role it continues today. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Charlie I am obviously confused maybe even an idiot as you say. You’re above post where YOU state England ceased to be a sovereign nation is an argument I will use against you. If as YOU yourself say England ceased to be a sovereign nation when pray tell did it reclaim its sovereignty? The English crown and kingdom was gifted to a Scottish king to finally bring the Island together. Admittedly there was also religious reasons, but the act of union created one country, a singular country, a country that has such a proud history (refer to previous posts in this thread) This was not done lightly and was done with a vision for the future, a future covered in glory rather than the long centuries of warfare and hatred.

The St. George's Cross flag continued to serve as England's distinct flag--a role it continues today.

My folks are British, Mum born in England and dad in Scotland.

How is this possible if these countries don't exist? Ask your mum and dad what COUNTRIES they are from....I bet I know the answer.

They instilled in me the importance and pride of being British. They hold British passports of course because you cannot get English passports (why not if it is a country?) My sister put her life on the line in the British army (not English) for 3 years in the late seventies. This is why I have a strong interest in wether Britain or England is the name of your country not just some outside 3party interested only in stirring the waters. The United Nations as previously mentioned does not recognise England as a country, you dismiss this as of no concern or relevance, yet if the United Nations opinions do not count then who decides when a country is formed?

Well I'm really not sure, you've stumped me. I never realised that the UN had been running since the dawn of time

As mentioned Charlie I sincerely hope this issue can be discussed civilly if not then I will let you have your reply after all this is your thread and leave it as done and dusted. Peace [img]graemlins/hippysmile.gif[/img]

This was never a politico based British/English discussion. I refer you to the very simple question I asked at the start of the whole thread.

"I wonder, how many people here would recognise the English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish flags as "stand alone" flags? As opposed to the Union flag."


[ 02-20-2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Charlie ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by wellard: Sovereign by my dictionary means (adj) possessing supreme (political) power. I am not sure that any of those examples fit that definition Yorick. Take Queensland for example a separate country until federation in 1901 when it joined the commonwealth of Australia. It used to have its own army and govern its own borders now it still has its own parliament and makes most of its own laws but is now only a state. No one in Queensland would now say in answer to what country do you come from, anything other than Australia. I’m sure that many of the states in the U.S.A are the same. I am asking however how can one area be two countries. We have the UK of GB and NI with its government in London and flag flying proudly outside the united nations speaking for and protecting the land from the Shetland isles to the Isle of man and from lands end to Southend. The British army, navy, air force ECT. Where as the concept of England, apart from beating proudly in the heart of anyone who was born there is harder in my opinion to track down. Where is the government of England? If you say parliament house, then what of the Scottish and welsh and NI mp’s? How can they from a foreign land vote in affairs of the English. Now it may be that I am wrong and there is no such thing as a country of Great Britain or it maybe the case of there being two countries for the price of one, maybe someone can explain?

You said "only a State" yet here is one definition of a State:

5 a : a politically organized body of people usually occupying a definite territory; especially : one that is sovereign
b : the political organization of such a body of people
c : a government or politically organized society having a particular character

A federation or union is a merger of such independent states as opposed to absorbtion into and subjegation under another nation, state or country.

One can be two things at once. You can be a son and a father for example.

If you look at the Holy Roman Empire, you had the situation of Austria. Austria was part of the Holy Roman (German) Empire, and actually had it's ruling family monopolise the Emperorship for generations. Yet, It was itself an empire - the Hapsburg Empire - and contained territories such as Hungary, Holland, Burgundy and Spain which were not part of the German Empire. Lines overlapped.

As long as you see things in Black and white pertaining to nationhood, you'll miss the shades of colour that surround the quirkiness of international developments.

Within Australia, Arnhemland is for all intents and purposes an independent nation. Certainly it is soveriegn in most areas. Yet it is part of the State of the Northern Territory, which is part of the federation that is Australia which is part of the British Commonwealth.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by wellard: The United Nations as previously mentioned does not recognise England as a country, you dismiss this as of no concern or relevance, yet if the United Nations opinions do not count then who decides when a country is formed?

The United nations does not recognise Taiwan as a country either Wellard. But is it really a part of China as is "officially" held?

[Charlie]

Originally posted by Yorick: See... what beauty. What grandeur!

ROTFLMAO. Can't believe I missed it. Is that Scotgland?

Good job.

[Yorick]

C'mon Charles... That's St. Paddys Irish flag. From the days of "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland".

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Yorick: The United nations does not recognise Taiwan as a country either Wellard. But is it really a part of China as is "officially" held?

Yes, Taiwan is part of China. Even the USA, who has gone out on a limb by having "trade relations" with Taiwan is careful to say it is part of China. China's navy performs lots of manuevers in the waters between China and Taiwan just to keep us reminded. Taiwan's government may be very separate, but it still pays homage to the godhead. CIA factbook: "note - China considers Taiwan its 23rd province"

cite: http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications...k/geos/ch.html

[Ar-Cunin]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Yes, Taiwan is part of China.

Or China is a part of Taiwan - depending from where you view it

[Yorick]

Timber, what is said and what actually IS are often two very different things. Taiwan is an INDEPENDENT AUTONOMOUS nation with it's own politics, economy, currency and culture totally separate from China's. The fact that the UN deosn't 'officially' recognise it because of China's rhetoric does not change the reality of the situation.

No nation in the world would make a trade agreement with China and expect Taiwanese shipments to start coming in. Every time someone deals with Taiwan on an economic level they recognise it's autonomy, whether they sign a piece of paper saying they do or not.