The "gay" high school opens with hateful protests

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Faceman: Well mayber bullying is a tradition in the US. It's not here in Austria. Of course we got bullies too but when it comes to physical abuse it's teachers conference and expulsion after the third incident (if not sooner). And it is not necessary for the victims to squeal because teachers notice if a kid is being bullied the hard way and take action. This extends to bullying outside of school too (no: "I'll meet you outside") I cannot recall more than three incidents during my schooltime that were not followed by expulsion of the bullies (in these cases they stopped bullying after the second warning). Where were they expelled to? First to another school in case their behaviour was because of private feuds. If they continued there they were expelled to a special school where teachers also work on their violence issues. So it's not that hard. Send the bullies to bully-school because it's them who need to sort their issues out if they can't function in a society/school without resorting to violence.

I hear ya Faceman...I wish the sort of school this topic refers to wasn't neccessary. I know violence isn't tolerated in schools here on the whole, but perhaps it is glossed over in some cases because the victims are gay or have gender issues. I guess the system needs reform or rather the people running it do.

Of course the point of this topic was how poorly some people treat gays, not the school in particular.

[True_Moose]

Bullying is now treated as an inconvenience, rather than a problem. Too often, the kids who do it get scot-free, because of their parents, or their ability to lie. Administrators like to think they have more important things to do. There is almost no support for a victim.

Anyways, about the school itself: no. Absolutely not. How on earth are you supposed to know 100% your sexual orientation by the time you're in high school. Hell, some of my friend's aren't too sure, and we're on the tail-end of high school, (last year, actually.) Not to mention the obvious neighbourhood jokes, the possible embarassment when you tell your friends and family where you go to school, and how tough it could be to get into many colleges and jobs. I don't think it's a good decision. Have more orientation in regular schools towards homosexuality and alternate-sexuality. They're going to live in the mainstream someday anyway. Plenty of adults are as cruel towards homosexuals as teens are.

[Skunk]

---Timber If every kid who got swirlees and beatings for being different got a special school, we'd have goth schools, nerd schools, stoner schools -- only the jocks and preps would go to normal school. Isn't that silly?

That's a very good point and one that will not be lost on the 'gay-haters' either. "Hey! All we have to do 'clean' our school of this 'gay trash' is to harass them a little. So why don't we"

So it is possible that the creation of this school will increase harrassment at other schools...

--True_Moose Plenty of adults are as cruel towards homosexuals as teens are.

Quite true. Unfortunately, bullying doesn't always end after high-school, there are plenty of bosses who love to do it too. In a perverse way, bullying in high-school teaches you to deal with the world after school, where the bullying and mal-treatment by others is often far worse.

Obviously I am not condoning bullying in schools but, I remember from my own time at school how the system worked. Bullies picked on the kids for any excuse, brown skin, glasses, obesity, father is a teacher - any excuse they could find. The way to avoid the bullying was always the same though - when they came for you, you stood up for yourself and fought all of them if neccessary - even though you knew you would lose. You'd come away bloody but they wouldn't come back to you again - too much trouble.

A valuable life lesson I think.

[ 09-10-2003, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Skunk: quote: ---Timber If every kid who got swirlees and beatings for being different got a special school, we'd have goth schools, nerd schools, stoner schools -- only the jocks and preps would go to normal school. Isn't that silly?

That's a very good point and one that will not be lost on the 'gay-haters' either. "Hey! All we have to do 'clean' our school of this 'gay trash' is to harass them a little. So why don't we"

So it is possible that the creation of this school will increase harrassment at other schools...
[/QUOTE]First off Timber's point misses the fact the being a homosexual isn't like being in a social/fashion clique like being a goth, stoner, nerd, prep, or jock is. Second off the kind of harrassment a gay kid faces is more akin to hateful racism than social bullying. Thirdly, people who practice hate crimes need no additional excuse to practice hate. They do it out of ignorant hate and prejudice rather than because of idiotic conflicting social spheres.

Obviously I am not condoning bullying in schools but, I remember from my own time at school how the system worked. Bullies picked on the kids for any excuse, brown skin, glasses, obesity, father is a teacher - any excuse they could find. The way to avoid the bullying was always the same though - when they came for you, you stood up for yourself and fought all of them if neccessary - even though you knew you would lose. You'd come away bloody but they wouldn't come back to you again - too much trouble. A valuable life lesson I think.

Actually if you fight back in school in America you get the same punishment as the aggressor, suspension or expulsion in most cases. The adults at the school are responsible for the safety of the kids. Taking the matter into your own hands is frown uponed and punished.

I stopped encountering bullism when I reached junior high. In grade school I was a constant target becasue I had a severe stutter and I have a funny last name. Every instance of fighting back landed me suspended and in dire threat of being held back due to failure although I never once started any of the altercations.

I would think the macho gang of hatemongers, rednecks, or gangbangers would be infuriated that a wimpy little 'fag' would have the nads to actually fight back and would just intensify the harrasment.

For example my friend John finally decided to fight back and was stabbed repeatedly on the school lawn during lunch several days later ( after serving suspension for fighting) because the gang-banger whos nose he broke was embarressed and wanted revenge. His spine was severed and he will never feel his legs again. That is a valuable lesson about fighting back I think.

Sad and ironic that he wasn't even gay, just a bit fem. But the assholes who harrassed him up over and over again, beat him bloody, and finally stabbed him sure thought he was gay. Perhaps it was brave of him to fight back considering the reputation the aggressors had for carrying weapons, perhaps it was the biggest mistake of his life. Maybe if he would have just taken a few licks that day instead of throwing a single punch he would still be playing soccer and moshing at concerts.

It is a bad memory forme. I saw the stabbing occur. Maybe I'm personally attatched to this issue for obvious reasons, but I don't think my judgment is clouded by it.

Another point to consider: a typical trait amongst gay males is passivness/effimancy. Hardly the kind of personality trait conductive to making any sort stand against hatred and rage.
The statistics of teen suicide and depression amongst gays speak for themselves.


Doesn't the fact that this school has a 90% graduation rate with 60% going on to college mean anything as well? Not bad considering alot of the student body may have once been drop-outs.

Is the safe albeit seperate school the lessor or greater of evils in this issue until the same gaurantee of safety can be made in all schools?

[Donut]

I think parents of heterosexual children should be pleased about this development. Now their sons can't be converted or seduced into homosexuality when the time comes to make the decision whether to be straight or gay.

[Skunk]

--Chewbacca Actually if you fight back in school in America you get the same punishment as the aggressor, suspension or expulsion in most cases. The adults at the school are responsible for the safety of the kids. Taking the matter into your own hands is frown uponed and punished.

What??? So if someone begins to punch you, you are supposed to just do nothing until he has finished, regardless of the damage (permanent or temporary), broken bones etc??? Man, if that is the case in the US, then the country is really screwed up. How about coming to the rescue of the victim, is that not allowed until the bullies have finished half killing their victim either?

--Chewbacca Every instance of fighting back landed me suspended and in dire threat of being held back due to failure although I never once started any of the altercations.

Sorry to hear about that - what your school did was akin to condoning bullying - personally, I would have sued them.

--Chewbacca For example my friend John finally decided to fight back and was stabbed repeatedly on the school lawn during lunch several days later ( after serving suspension for fighting) because the gang-banger whos nose he broke was embarressed and wanted revenge. His spine was severed and he will never feel his legs again. That is a valuable lesson about fighting back I think.

I'm sorry to hear about that but, 'the ganbanger' probably would have poked him at some point anyway - because that is the kind of person he is. Maybe not immediately, probably would have made him suffer and live in fear for a couple of years - but sooner or later, he would have done him a serious injury.

--Chewbacca Another point to consider: a typical trait amongst gay males is passivness/effimancy. Hardly the kind of personality trait conductive to making any sort stand against hatred and rage. The statistics of teen suicide and depression amongst gays speak for themselves.

No, the trait of passivity is something that has to be overcome - or people will walk all over such folk for the rest of their lives - hence the (unintended) educational aspect of learning to stand up for yourself.

--Chewbacca Doesn't the fact that this school has a 90% graduation rate with 60% going on to college mean anything as well?

Yeah - it means that the school is well funded in comparison to its impoverished neighbours - who will soon start to resent its 'special' treatment.

--Chewbacca Is the safe albeit seperate school the lessor or greater of evils in this issue until the same gaurantee of safety can be made in all schools?

Absolutley not - because the existence of such schools will help to continue the myth that gays are 'different' and so the mainstream schools and society at large will fail to get the message across that gays are normal people. Thus in twenty years time we will still be having the same debate as a direct result of the existence of such ill-conceived institutions. Publicly highlighting differences always leads to discrimination.

Chewbacca, as you yourself said:
Thirdly, people who practice hate crimes need no additional excuse to practice hate. They do it out of ignorant hate and prejudice rather than because of idiotic conflicting social spheres.
The minority of hate mongers gather the ignorant around them and 'educate' them to their way of thinking. Removing the gay kids from the mainstream school system will help them in their task of 'educating' because the 'student' has no gay references in his social sphere...

[Sir Taliesin]

That's quite true. There is no fighting allowed in school. Both partys are punished, though usually the "bully" or the one who started it is given a stronger punishment. Now a days, they will cal the parents in for a conference. When I went to school, the just busted our asses and we may have gotten an in-school suspension. those that got into a lot of fights were suspended for a period of time.

In High School now, they will also call the police and the police will decide if charges are to be filed. Personally, I think that is a little extreme, but live in different times now.

BTW, the school system my children are in, has it's on police force. Schools that have a high incidence of voilence will have one or two school policeman assigned to it. They are armed and are trained just like any other police officer.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Rokenn: TL, Just checking you do know who Harvey Milk is right?

No, I don't. But if you're asking the question, then I suspect it may be a reference to Stonewall or some such gay history.

[Timber Loftis]

First off, let me say I think I'm in complete agreement with everything Skunk has said. In fact, I just placed a call to my shrink so we can work through this issue to where I can deal with it. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: So your saying it is okay for the striaght couple to dance at the school dance or hold hands in the hallway, but if a gay couple does that its shoving sexuality in your face.

No, I wasn't saying that. My reference was a gripe about those who are just too annoyingly "out." I mean, two guys dancing together doesn't bother me much. One guy running aroung with Daisy Dukes up his arse crack, bronze highlights in his hair, flipping his wrist about, lisping and calling everyone "girlfriend," however just screams "I need attention." And, the gay folks who feel compelled to tell you their sexual preference only minutes after you meet them get to me, too (As I said, I felt no inclination to tell him about my Mary Lou Retton blow-up doll). Those were my references. However, knowing that if you dance with someone of the same sex in public will get some people to hate you is a valuable life lesson. While society is changin by LEAPS AND BOUNDS with regard to gay acceptance, high schools should still not coddle the kids and should not LIE to them about how they will be perceived in the real world.

How about letting them learn the lesson that they deserve to get an education in a safe enviroment and deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. How teaching the lesson that bulling and discrimination IS NOT OKAY and that the powers that be will protect them BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY. How about those lessons? [/QB]

They're useless lessons. They don't "teach" anything other than pipe dreams. Let me tell you, if I had a dollar for everytime a boss called me stupid, I'd be a rich man. If I had a dollar for everytime other associates were called stupid to go with the other dollars, I'd be Bill Gates. I would guess that about 85% of the attorneys I've seen spend a ton of time telling younger attorneys they are ignorant. And, guess what, they're right quite often. Respect .... pfffffffffft. YOu don't get it in the real world. Why lie about life and replace truth with pipe dreams and visions of Xanadu?

Discrimination? I was reading a Havard Business article yesterday on "how to pitch the perfect project." It was very informative, and based on the presumption that studies show it takes as little as 150 milliseconds for someone to form a first impression of you. We discriminate. We all do. The world is too vast for our minds to comprehend without putting boxes around people and filing them in appropriate drawers. Again, why lie?

As for bullying, is it not okay. But, how do you stop it? Stopping bullying in schools is like trying to change the direction of wind. Look, I got bullied. I've been tripped with my tray in the lunchroom a time or ten. In fact, if it weren't for bullies, I'd have gotten in almost no fistfights -- and would have missed those valuable life experiences. Plus, I wouldn't have the acute recollection of what it feels like to have my tooth punched through my lip (wanna see my scar? ) to remind me I might want to hold my tongue when I'm getting ready to be a smartass in a bar.

Really, aren't bullies a necessary evil? I saw the most quiet nice guy one day achieve full self-actualization when the baddest school bully slammed his locker on his face. He achieved mythic status amongst us by going berserk and kicking the crap outta the bully until the teachers broke it up. He got to experience his barbaric yawp. No one can ever take that away from him. And, that bully never crossed him again. Imagine the social harm we'll be doing to kids by removing the bullies from the flock.

[ 09-10-2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Rokenn: TL, Just checking you do know who Harvey Milk is right?

No, I don't. But if you're asking the question, then I suspect it may be a reference to Stonewall or some such gay history. [/QUOTE]Harvey Milk was the first openly gay person elected to the San Francisco Board of Supervisor in 1977. Prior to being elected he was known as the Mayor of Castro Street (the City's main gay neighborhood). The following year he was assassinated by Dan White, an ex-city supervisor. White got of on a reduced capacity plea and only served about 7 years for killing Supervisor Milk and Mayor George Moscone, the so-called Twinkie defense. White committed suicide soon after being release from prison in the mid 80's..