Speaking of Languages...

[Sazerac]

Since the topic seems to have been opened in other threads, I am fascinated with the particularities of the 2nd and 3rd person forms of addresses in various cultures. Back in not-so-ancient times, English delimited the difference with the "thee" vs. "thou" address; one formal, the other informal. This seems to be common among most cultures, and it's only in recent times that I think this particular convention seems to have been relaxed. "Thee" and "thou" became the informal "you," regardless of whether you are talking to a family member or a mere acquaintance.

In German, there is the familiar "du" and the impersonal "de", and in Spanish, there is the familiar "tu'" and the impersonal "usted". I'm not familiar with French or Italian, but I'm sure that they use a similar convention. (I know the French familiar "vous" but that's about as far as it goes for me.)

Having grown up in the American culture, I find the use of the formal 3rd person address distasteful, and slightly disrespectful...to speak to a human being directly in the 3rd person as if they were a chair, or a pizza. Perhaps I have got the wrong end of the stick here, as it were, but that's how it seems to me, and that may be due to my particular cultural heritage, which thrives on familiarity. In my historical and literary studies, I have read instances in which, for example, two friends who had been so for over forty years broke company because one dared to address the other with the "du" form of address rather than the "de" form. (In Denmark, and it was the 19th century, to give you the time perspective.) I don't think I would want to be friends with someone who took that degree of umbrage over what seems to me to be a mere trifle of semantics.

To the European members of IW: is it the same way there now? Have these conventions been relaxed in recent years, or do they still hold to tradition? If tradition still holds, what factors would cause someone to use the familiar form vs. the formal form of the address? I'm really interested to know.

Thanks!

[Lioness]

Definitely agree with ya Saz. I live in the states, but think it's crazy to have two forms of the word "you" (no offense to anyone). Just say you!

Sorry if I sound wierd, it's late.

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Official teaser and ranger of the HADB Clan
Waitress and entertainer at Cloudy's Cafe in GD

[Reeka]

Saz,

I am not European, but have studied a few languages. Actually English is an exception in NOT having a formal form of address in the second person singular. This may have been a peculiar slant that my various teachers and professors gave to the issue, but I was told that having this form of address is rather a positive as opposed to a negative. By that I mean, that in those cultures, let us take for example Spanish, since many may be familiar with it, that the "tu" form of you is only used for people with whom you are close to, or have affection for, a more intimate form of "you" from the formal. I find that to be a rather nice way to look at it. In English, we just have our catch-all form of you. I, personally, have found it gratifying when in a relationship with someone with whom I converse in another language, that that person begins to address me in the informal form of "you." It says to me that our friendship has gone to a level beyond acquaintances, if you would. Perhaps our European friends have a totally different slant on this matter, but it has never been presented to me in a negative light.

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Order of the Holy Flame
Member of Clan HADB

[Cloudbringer]

English DID have the formal and informal versions of second person address, it simply evolved out of modern use. Some churches maintain the old thee/thou usage in services (my own has 2 versions a more modern one and that traditional one).

In Russian, the distinction remains in modern use. The formal 'you' is also the plural.

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Lifetime]

Actually the Chinese have 4 different words to say "that person"
There's a female, male, animal, item version, and all have different characters.

In language I believe that subtlety in separating an aquaintance from a friend can be or would have been pretty much important in social etiquette, not to mention between social classes and ranks in society..

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Why?

[Moiraine]

That is a good topic, Sazerac , and as a French, I can tell you that choosing between "tu" and "vous" is not always as simple as it seems !

Basically, you would say "tu" to anyone in your family and any friend. You would say "vous" to someone you don't know or don't know well. You say "vous" in any professional context, except if it is the rule inside your company to say "tu" (which tends to be more and more the case). You say "vous" to people with a significant age difference with you, especially if they are quite older than you.

Think about "tu" as showing closeness and familiarity, while "vous" shows politeness and respect, but also distance.

One of the problems is going to "tu" when you have started to say "vous" to someone and are getting closer to him/her. I have the problem with my son's piano teacher ! I started to say "vous" as a sign of politeness, and now we both have trouble going to "tu" !

The way I was raised, I personnally have trouble saying "tu" to a new professional relation, even as I know it's the rule in the company I work in ... But it seems that the younger people are, the more inclined they are to say "tu" to everyone. I remember having felt very cold when at 10 I went to middle school and all the teachers started to say "vous" to 10-years-old children ...

In some circumstances, saying "tu" can be pejorative, showing a lack of consideration. It happens, for example, that policemen say "tu" to colored people, showing by doing so a racist attitude. For saying "tu" to someone you don't know and in a strictly professional context is very rude indeed.

I have always wondered, you from the UK or US, what is your way to express that difference of attitude toward other persons, lacking the "tu" and "vous" distinction ?


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The world is my oyster !

[trux]

The impersonal in other cultures is not disrespectful (obviously,) but rather as a sign of respect to that person whom you're not familiar with.

After all, we here in the states wouldn't address an elderly man we've never met by saying, "Hey, dude!" We'd say, "Hello, Sir." I know this example is kind of silly, and is based more on age, but it's really the same idea.

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trux

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Sazerac: [B] In German, there is the familiar "du" and the impersonal "de", and in Spanish, there is the familiar "tu'" and the impersonal "usted". I'm not familiar with French or Italian, but I'm sure that they use a similar convention. (I know the French familiar "vous" but that's about as far as it goes for me.)

Um...actually I have no idea what your information source is, but in German, the distinction is made between 'Du' and 'Sie' (not 'de'). As in Russian, 'Sie' (but without the capital) is also used for the plural. The French version, as Moiraine said, is tu/vous. In Holland, we use 'jij' or 'jou' as a familiar form and 'u' as a respectful term. 'U' is used for people who are older or higher on the social ladder. In most companies nowadays, it's now normal to address everybody with the familiar form, so that I call the highest manager by her first name, and use 'jij' instead of 'u'.

Having grown up in the American culture, I find the use of the formal 3rd person address distasteful, and slightly disrespectful...to speak to a human being directly in the 3rd person as if they were a chair, or a pizza. Perhaps I have got the wrong end of the stick here, as it were, but that's how it seems to me, and that may be due to my particular cultural heritage, which thrives on familiarity. In my historical and literary studies, I have read instances in which, for example, two friends who had been so for over forty years broke company because one dared to address the other with the "du" form of address rather than the "de" form. (In Denmark, and it was the 19th century, to give you the time perspective.) I don't think I would want to be friends with someone who took that degree of umbrage over what seems to me to be a mere trifle of semantics.

Um...I think it goes without saying that these conventions are now much more relaxed...doh. I don't know, again, where you got your information but it should be fairly obvious that nowadays, we don't break off 40 years of friendship over this... I don't agree at all that using 'u' or 'vous' or 'Sie' is distasteful, and what you are saying about calling someone the same as a chair or dog is of course nonsense, as both forms are totally different. You are confusing the third person with the 'impersonal', but they are not the same (eg in Dutch, the third person is hij/zij/het, not 'u' and in German there's er/sie/es, which is different from 'Sie'). It is not perceived at all as addressing someone as an object or anything.
Your example, you say, is from the nineteenth century, which should indicate that matters have changed over the years. If you showed some ankle in those days you'd be frowned upon, and calling the King 'old chap' wouldn't be a good idea either......what I'm saying is, it was just a rule of courtesy, nothing more.Personally I think the fact that you can decide between the two forms adds to the richness of the language, and while it may cause some embarrassment sometimes (though this is hardly ever the case in Dutch, as the conventions are pretty easy to grasp, and if in doubt, you can always mumble ) I really like the use of the two different forms of addressal.

Hope this sheds some light on the matter, at least from the Dutch perspective



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Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH,
the HADB and the SPAE(Society for the
Prevention of Acronym Extinction) &
Official Entertainer Elf of the BG2 Bar

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

[Melusine]

Originally posted by trux: The impersonal in other cultures is not disrespectful (obviously,) but rather as a sign of respect to that person whom you're not familiar with. After all, we here in the states wouldn't address an elderly man we've never met by saying, "Hey, dude!" We'd say, "Hello, Sir." I know this example is kind of silly, and is based more on age, but it's really the same idea.

No, that is actually a very good point, and a good example.....thanks!!

(*snigger* "Hey dude" ROFL!!!!!)



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Melusine, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, the LH,
the HADB and the SPAE(Society for the
Prevention of Acronym Extinction) &
Official Entertainer Elf of the BG2 Bar

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

[Sazerac]

Wow! What wonderful feedback on this topic! Thanks a bundle on it.

In reading through the posts, I came to realize something about my own language...we DO make a distinction between the formal and the familiar, but it is more implied than directed (we have no formal form, in other words.) Trux's point on the use of slang with a familiar person is very well taken, and explained things to me extremely well.

I remember when I was first teaching at a university. A student came into our office "bullpen" (I was a teaching fellow at the time, not a prof.) looking for another teacher. He proceeded to refer to me as "Bucko", "Big guy" (I happen to be portly, BTW), "Dude", and other addresses which I considered to be beyond rude. By the time he walked out I was ready to slam his disrespectful head into a wall. Oh, how I would have LOVED to have had him in one of my classes! heh heh

People using US English (and it may be the same for UK English now) only use the familiar form of address ("you") for both singular and plural (although in Texas, "y'all" is an acceptable form of informal 2nd person plural. ) I think our distinction between familiar and formal comes more in how we treat the overall person rather than just language, although our language does bear into this. For example, were I meeting with a prospective boss on an interview, I would treat him/her in the most formal setting that I could. I would refer to him/her as Mr./Ms. (last name) and then refer indirectly to him/her rather than directly (avoiding the use of "you" as much as possible.) I of course would never do this with a friend or a family member; pet names of course are acceptable as are informal manners of speech and address. So ours would be more implied rather than explicit such as the European languages use.

I guess it's something I never thought much about. It confounded me in school to learn these two methods of address, and have teachers hounding us on "NEVER use the informal address!!" and implying that one had to treat everyone as if they were an object. REALLY made me want to go visit those cultures, NOT! Now, of course, I see that it's just a different way of doing what we do as well. I fully appreciate that, and wish it had been demonstrated to me in such a manner as those of you who have posted here have done in just a few posts. That simple!

In answer to Melusine's excellent post: I did imagine that things had changed from the harshness of the 19th century. I just didn't know to what degree they had changed. Do understand that in our culture, when we are taught a foreign tongue, we are subjected to the absolute, most rigorous, "nobility" form of the language and never get to learn the informal mode of conversational speech. Therefore, I can sit and read Cervantes' or Quevedo's works in Spanish without much problem, but I have extreme difficulty following conversation between two Hispanic people in their more informal mode of talking. I hope this is changing in schools now, and that they are emphasizing the more informal modes of speech as well as the proper forms.

Thank you all very much for this wonderful feedback. Moraine, yours was VERY well appreciated and extremely well expressed as well. Reeka, Cloudy, I appreciate your viewpoints too from the US point of view. I also find it fascinating about Lifetime's point of the 4 methods of address in Chinese. That would be something interesting to learn more about!

Cheers,