thief type for the long haul

Dregos · 01-29-2002, 05:26 PM

I just started BG1 and have little knowledge of BG1 and BG2, but I want to create a thief type main character to play through both games and expansions plus whatever else may come. I was wondering for all you experienced gamers and thief lovers out there, what's the best way to make the ultimate thief type character. I started a multi-class fighter/thief, but after reading some posts on this board, I am leaning towards dual classing. What combinations would you recommend? I want a powerful character that has strong thief abilities, e.g. stealth, sense traps, picklocks/disarm, backstab. I was thinking of a thief->mage, but would I be giving up any nice thieving abilities in the end game? At what level would be a good time to start the 2nd class without sacrificing thieving abilities. How about figher->thief, thief->figher? Any other combination that would make a thief even better? Any input is appeciated.

Dregos

GreenBuddha · 01-29-2002, 06:33 PM

Hope I don't post twice, I lost my connection in the sending...

As for dual classing, if you are specifically looking at a fighter-thief, absolutely take the fighter first. I am kind of new to BG as well but I have gamed for years. The fighter will allow you to get percentile strength right away. You also will get good saving throws, and, if you change over at third level, you will get the weapon proficiency of a warrior and can use that to specialize. Personally I don't recommend dual classing after third level. I think it is diminishing returns on the benefits vs. getting your second class to a level that is useful. For any other thief class you need to look at what type of character you want. Do you want a mage with some thief skills(thief then mage) or a thief with some magic missiles and knock(mage then thief). No matter what you decide, if the thief is first, you should specialize in one thief skill. If you spread the points out, then you won't have a decent ability anywhere. hope this helps, I personally love thief characters! GB.

Lemernis · 01-29-2002, 07:35 PM

I would go with a fighter dualed to thief. You could do the fighter thing in BG1 just long enough to get him grandmastery in long swords when the character converts to BG2. Believe it or not, I think you may be able to do that by dualing a fighter at level 5. That's only 16,000 XP, it's nothing really. You then want to reach level 10 as a thief, i.e., max out (or close to it) on XP in Tales. In the conversion process to BG2 you'll find that you will be able to allot 5 stars to katana (or whatever weapon you want, but katana is a smart choice) and select a Kensai kit for your former fighter. I would highly recommend trying this dual class approach as you will be astonished at some of the critical hit backstab scores that you can eventually get with grandmastery in BG2.

I no longer have BG2 on my computer so can't test it, but I'm almost positive it is dual a fighter at level 5 (if not then perhaps level 6) and reach thief level 10.

You can test it yourself. Make a 0 XP fighter; CLUA XP to 16,000; dual class to thief; CLUA XP to 161,000; export; copy that .chr file to the BG2 Characters folder; import into the character into a BG2 game; test the prof distribution for yourself.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Lemernis ]

01-29-2002, 09:00 PM

Go M/C F/T. THAC0 bonuses, weapon prof's and thieving abilities to name but a few. You may as well progress in 2 classes simultaneously than go stagnant in 1 whilst playing catch up in the other...... Just my 2P.

Lemernis · 01-29-2002, 11:54 PM

Mind you what I'm proposing is for the long haul. Also, I think Dregos has in mind to really get the most out of playing a thief. Myself, the only thing I would want the fighter profs for is to get the massive hits on the backstabs. If the your fighter-thief gets an additional prof or two to put into the bow that's fine. But I wouldn't care about him progressing as a fighter, really. Just give him enough profs to make awesome backstabs. If he multiclasses as a fighter-thief he won't be able to get more than two profs in any weapon, and the fighter skills that he does acquire would end up being very spread out, and won't be as nearly as fun as having grandmastery for his backstabs. IMO.

Darkman · 01-30-2002, 03:05 PM

Well you would have to be a level 9 Fighter to get Grand Mastery in a weapon, which would mean you wouldn't even be a Thief until BG2. If you are interested in dualing a Fighter->Thief, I would suggest doing so at either level 3 (mastery in a weapon 3*), or level 6 (high mastery 4*) if you have ToSC installed.

My personal preference though would be to use a multiclass so you can pick up some racial bonuses and so you can use those thieving skills for the entire game. You could be an Elven Fighter-Thief multiclass since Elves get +1 with long swords and bows. They also can have 19 dexterity while humans can only have 18 at best. Higher dexterity gives you more thieving ability points to use.

Single class Thieves are less powerful in the long haul than dual or multi classed Thieves, IMO. They only get 1 proficiency point per weapon and their THACO will not be as good. Eventually you will max out your thieving skills and the single class Thief will lose his only advantage over dual/multi Thieves which is gaining thieving skills faster.

Dregos · 01-30-2002, 04:16 PM

Thanks for all the input. So far the idea of dualing a Fighter to Thief sounds the best. I have TOTSC so I'll probably dual at either level 6 or 9 to try to get a good mastery in a weapon. I don't mind waiting a bit to get a better char in the long run, since there will be thief NPCs for me to play with anyways. Any ideas on what weapon to specialize in? I assumed I could only backstab with small sword type, but snooping around the BG1/2 boards here, I've heard katana, 2h swords, even 2h blunt for that TOB quarterstaff?

Also I've read on the BG2 board that Kensai->Thief at lev 13 gives very nice bonuses of +4 to hit, +4 damage, -3 speed factor and 3 KAI abilities, among grandmastery of one (maybe two?) weapons. If this is the case, would it be better to play the Fighter straight through, transfer to BG2 with the Kensai kit, play to 13, then dual? Would this alternate character be much better or only a little bit better than the one who dualed at 9 in BG1 then transferred?

Waiting til BG2 and level 13 to actually start thieving is pretty painful. Are there any benefits to transfering a Fighter over to BG2 compared to just starting a fresh Kensai? If not, I may consider just doing two separate characters so I can mess with thieving earlier, but I really want one continous character on one continous saga, you know what I mean.

Dregos

Lemernis · 01-30-2002, 04:50 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Darkman:
Well you would have to be a level 9 Fighter to get Grand Mastery in a weapon...

What I'm saying above is that if you do what I outlined, i.e., dual a fighter to thief at level 5 and then reach level 10 as a thief, during the conversion process in BG2 upon importing you will find that when you distribute profs you will be able to give the character 5 stars in a weapon. During BG1 you won't have grandmastery. I forget how many profs it is that you get by level 5 as a fighter.

Now as for maxing out in thief skills, yeah, that is something you might regret. There you have to weigh out the advantages of 5 stars in katana as you dole out the backstabs, on the one hand, versus only two wespons profs yet being able to gain profs in a wide variety of weapons throughout the game as a multiclass. Me, I would prefer to be absolutely devastating in the backstab, but I can definitely see how someone might want more variety in their skills thoughout BG2/ToB.

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Lemernis ]

Darkman · 01-30-2002, 04:58 PM

Well there is one distinct advantage to playing through BG1 as opposed to just starting a guy in BG2... TOMES. There are tomes in BG1 that can raise each of your stats by 1 point (more than one of these for WIS though), which will enable your character to achieve super human stats in some areas. Your character could end up with 19 STR and 19 DEX!

Now then, sure the longer you wait to dual the more powerful your Thief is gonna be... But, for me at least, there is a point where you have to draw the line between powergaming and role-playing. It just wouldn't feel right having a level 12 or 15 Kensai dualing to a Thief. I mean you'd be fighting your way through BG1 and ToSC as a Fighter, wearing heavy full plate armor. Then suddenly you become a Kensai for a few levels and then turn into a Thief... It's just not right [img]smile.gif[/img]

A Fighter->Thief with 19 STR should be a strong enough character no matter what level you dual, IMO. So dual at whatever level you want. I am not sure exactly what weapons you can backstab with, but I know daggers, short swords, and long swords will work. For BG1 I'd put 2 pts in bows and the rest in long swords (there are pleanty of good long swords in BG1). You can change your proficiencies at the start of BG2 to whatever you want, like Katanas which don't exist in BG1.

Darkman · 01-30-2002, 05:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis:

What I'm saying above is that if you do what I outlined, i.e., dual a fighter to thief at level 5 and then reach level 10 as a thief, during the conversion process in BG2 upon importing you will find that when you distribute profs you will be able to give the character 5 stars in a weapon. During BG1 you won't have grandmastery. I forget how many profs it is that you get by level 5 as a fighter.

I did not know that. Thanks. About the attainment of proficieny points, Fighters & Rangers & Paladins get an extra point every 3rd level (3, 6, 9, etc), Thieves & Bards & Clerics & Druids gain a point every 4th level (4, 8, 12, etc), and Mages get a point every 6 levels (6, 12, etc).

01-29-2002, 06:33 PM	#2
GreenBuddha Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 28, 2002 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 9	Hope I don't post twice, I lost my connection in the sending... As for dual classing, if you are specifically looking at a fighter-thief, absolutely take the fighter first. I am kind of new to BG as well but I have gamed for years. The fighter will allow you to get percentile strength right away. You also will get good saving throws, and, if you change over at third level, you will get the weapon proficiency of a warrior and can use that to specialize. Personally I don't recommend dual classing after third level. I think it is diminishing returns on the benefits vs. getting your second class to a level that is useful. For any other thief class you need to look at what type of character you want. Do you want a mage with some thief skills(thief then mage) or a thief with some magic missiles and knock(mage then thief). No matter what you decide, if the thief is first, you should specialize in one thief skill. If you spread the points out, then you won't have a decent ability anywhere. hope this helps, I personally love thief characters! GB. __________________ Dukkha<br />Dukkha Samudaya<br />Dukkha Nirodha<br />Marga

01-29-2002, 07:35 PM	#3
Lemernis Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 611	I would go with a fighter dualed to thief. You could do the fighter thing in BG1 just long enough to get him grandmastery in long swords when the character converts to BG2. Believe it or not, I think you may be able to do that by dualing a fighter at level 5. That's only 16,000 XP, it's nothing really. You then want to reach level 10 as a thief, i.e., max out (or close to it) on XP in Tales. In the conversion process to BG2 you'll find that you will be able to allot 5 stars to katana (or whatever weapon you want, but katana is a smart choice) and select a Kensai kit for your former fighter. I would highly recommend trying this dual class approach as you will be astonished at some of the critical hit backstab scores that you can eventually get with grandmastery in BG2. I no longer have BG2 on my computer so can't test it, but I'm almost positive it is dual a fighter at level 5 (if not then perhaps level 6) and reach thief level 10. You can test it yourself. Make a 0 XP fighter; CLUA XP to 16,000; dual class to thief; CLUA XP to 161,000; export; copy that .chr file to the BG2 Characters folder; import into the character into a BG2 game; test the prof distribution for yourself. [ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Lemernis ] __________________ Exodus: Shadows of the South

01-29-2002, 11:54 PM	#5
Lemernis Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 611	Mind you what I'm proposing is for the long haul. Also, I think Dregos has in mind to really get the most out of playing a thief. Myself, the only thing I would want the fighter profs for is to get the massive hits on the backstabs. If the your fighter-thief gets an additional prof or two to put into the bow that's fine. But I wouldn't care about him progressing as a fighter, really. Just give him enough profs to make awesome backstabs. If he multiclasses as a fighter-thief he won't be able to get more than two profs in any weapon, and the fighter skills that he does acquire would end up being very spread out, and won't be as nearly as fun as having grandmastery for his backstabs. IMO. __________________ Exodus: Shadows of the South

01-30-2002, 03:05 PM	#6
Darkman Avatar Join Date: July 11, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 43 Posts: 525	Well you would have to be a level 9 Fighter to get Grand Mastery in a weapon, which would mean you wouldn't even be a Thief until BG2. If you are interested in dualing a Fighter->Thief, I would suggest doing so at either level 3 (mastery in a weapon 3), or level 6 (high mastery 4) if you have ToSC installed. My personal preference though would be to use a multiclass so you can pick up some racial bonuses and so you can use those thieving skills for the entire game. You could be an Elven Fighter-Thief multiclass since Elves get +1 with long swords and bows. They also can have 19 dexterity while humans can only have 18 at best. Higher dexterity gives you more thieving ability points to use. Single class Thieves are less powerful in the long haul than dual or multi classed Thieves, IMO. They only get 1 proficiency point per weapon and their THACO will not be as good. Eventually you will max out your thieving skills and the single class Thief will lose his only advantage over dual/multi Thieves which is gaining thieving skills faster. __________________ There more of it there is,<br />The less you see.

01-30-2002, 04:50 PM	#8
Lemernis Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 611	quote: Originally posted by Darkman: Well you would have to be a level 9 Fighter to get Grand Mastery in a weapon... What I'm saying above is that if you do what I outlined, i.e., dual a fighter to thief at level 5 and then reach level 10 as a thief, during the conversion process in BG2 upon importing you will find that when you distribute profs you will be able to give the character 5 stars in a weapon. During BG1 you won't have grandmastery. I forget how many profs it is that you get by level 5 as a fighter. Now as for maxing out in thief skills, yeah, that is something you might regret. There you have to weigh out the advantages of 5 stars in katana as you dole out the backstabs, on the one hand, versus only two wespons profs yet being able to gain profs in a wide variety of weapons throughout the game as a multiclass. Me, I would prefer to be absolutely devastating in the backstab, but I can definitely see how someone might want more variety in their skills thoughout BG2/ToB. [ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Lemernis ] __________________ Exodus: Shadows of the South

01-29-2002, 05:26 PM	#1
Dregos Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 29, 2002 Location: United States Posts: 12	I just started BG1 and have little knowledge of BG1 and BG2, but I want to create a thief type main character to play through both games and expansions plus whatever else may come. I was wondering for all you experienced gamers and thief lovers out there, what's the best way to make the ultimate thief type character. I started a multi-class fighter/thief, but after reading some posts on this board, I am leaning towards dual classing. What combinations would you recommend? I want a powerful character that has strong thief abilities, e.g. stealth, sense traps, picklocks/disarm, backstab. I was thinking of a thief->mage, but would I be giving up any nice thieving abilities in the end game? At what level would be a good time to start the 2nd class without sacrificing thieving abilities. How about figher->thief, thief->figher? Any other combination that would make a thief even better? Any input is appeciated. Dregos

01-29-2002, 09:00 PM	#4
The Dark Guest Posts: n/a	Go M/C F/T. THAC0 bonuses, weapon prof's and thieving abilities to name but a few. You may as well progress in 2 classes simultaneously than go stagnant in 1 whilst playing catch up in the other...... Just my 2P.

01-30-2002, 04:16 PM	#7
Dregos Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 29, 2002 Location: United States Posts: 12	Thanks for all the input. So far the idea of dualing a Fighter to Thief sounds the best. I have TOTSC so I'll probably dual at either level 6 or 9 to try to get a good mastery in a weapon. I don't mind waiting a bit to get a better char in the long run, since there will be thief NPCs for me to play with anyways. Any ideas on what weapon to specialize in? I assumed I could only backstab with small sword type, but snooping around the BG1/2 boards here, I've heard katana, 2h swords, even 2h blunt for that TOB quarterstaff? Also I've read on the BG2 board that Kensai->Thief at lev 13 gives very nice bonuses of +4 to hit, +4 damage, -3 speed factor and 3 KAI abilities, among grandmastery of one (maybe two?) weapons. If this is the case, would it be better to play the Fighter straight through, transfer to BG2 with the Kensai kit, play to 13, then dual? Would this alternate character be much better or only a little bit better than the one who dualed at 9 in BG1 then transferred? Waiting til BG2 and level 13 to actually start thieving is pretty painful. Are there any benefits to transfering a Fighter over to BG2 compared to just starting a fresh Kensai? If not, I may consider just doing two separate characters so I can mess with thieving earlier, but I really want one continous character on one continous saga, you know what I mean. Dregos

01-30-2002, 04:58 PM	#9
Darkman Avatar Join Date: July 11, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 43 Posts: 525	Well there is one distinct advantage to playing through BG1 as opposed to just starting a guy in BG2... TOMES. There are tomes in BG1 that can raise each of your stats by 1 point (more than one of these for WIS though), which will enable your character to achieve super human stats in some areas. Your character could end up with 19 STR and 19 DEX! Now then, sure the longer you wait to dual the more powerful your Thief is gonna be... But, for me at least, there is a point where you have to draw the line between powergaming and role-playing. It just wouldn't feel right having a level 12 or 15 Kensai dualing to a Thief. I mean you'd be fighting your way through BG1 and ToSC as a Fighter, wearing heavy full plate armor. Then suddenly you become a Kensai for a few levels and then turn into a Thief... It's just not right [img]smile.gif[/img] A Fighter->Thief with 19 STR should be a strong enough character no matter what level you dual, IMO. So dual at whatever level you want. I am not sure exactly what weapons you can backstab with, but I know daggers, short swords, and long swords will work. For BG1 I'd put 2 pts in bows and the rest in long swords (there are pleanty of good long swords in BG1). You can change your proficiencies at the start of BG2 to whatever you want, like Katanas which don't exist in BG1. __________________ There more of it there is,<br />The less you see.

01-30-2002, 05:09 PM	#10
Darkman Avatar Join Date: July 11, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 43 Posts: 525	quote: Originally posted by Lemernis: What I'm saying above is that if you do what I outlined, i.e., dual a fighter to thief at level 5 and then reach level 10 as a thief, during the conversion process in BG2 upon importing you will find that when you distribute profs you will be able to give the character 5 stars in a weapon. During BG1 you won't have grandmastery. I forget how many profs it is that you get by level 5 as a fighter. I did not know that. Thanks. About the attainment of proficieny points, Fighters & Rangers & Paladins get an extra point every 3rd level (3, 6, 9, etc), Thieves & Bards & Clerics & Druids gain a point every 4th level (4, 8, 12, etc), and Mages get a point every 6 levels (6, 12, etc). __________________ There more of it there is,<br />The less you see.

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