Treatment of prisoners (yep, those ones...)

[Konfuzed and Zany]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melusine:
In addition:
What most Americans don't seem to grasp is that the whole notion of hating a nation (or loving it for that matter) is just... illogical to most other countries. I regard people as individuals, no matter where they come from, and without meaning to offend, comments like "I'd rather see a thousand people of nationality X killed than a single American" are sickening me. You compare it to putting your family before all others, and that notion is indeed familiar to me but hey, you KNOW and LOVE your family - how can you know and love all the people living in your country? There are murderers and rapists between them, same as in any other country. I'm just saying, the fear that people in other countries hate America is illogical. We don't have this fanatical patriotism either, we don't think in terms of countries. No sensible European would hate all Americans - and so they don't.

---

Amen to that

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Konfuzed and Zany ]

[WOLFGIR]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
Wolfgir - a lot of your post was covered earlier. The Geneva convention is international law, it concerns even those who haven't signed it. Also, as Konfused pointed out, it applies to everyone no matter what they did or who they attacked. That is the point of it, it covers everyone.

---

Sorry for the hasty added post Barry! The Geneva concerns all, that is true, until YOU BREAK IT!, that was the bit I missed sorry. And this might still be a clause that people debate on, like a lophole, but that is at least the way we were taught it for war purpose.. :S

Sorry if the thing I was taught was wrong duobley so for making me spread even more crap.. :S And also sorry for the repetition of material..

Well, I don´t like the heat in this kitchen guys and gals, reminds me of the War forum a bit too much so see ya..

(by the way, with out any regards to this one right now.. Deathpenalty is also against human rights, wether civil or prisoner of war..still it exist...)
http://www.icrc.org/icrceng.nsf/5845147e46836989c12561740044a4f7 /26674b4e54f4953341256237003a3ae0?OpenDocument

Oki, looooong link but that I will be reading now so we can definately end the Geneva discussion! I will come out of this discussion a more educated wolf! Thanks!

Say is it just me or is it hot here?
http://www.icrc.org/icrceng.nsf/5cac...ht=2,terrorism

A paper on Humanitarian laws and terrorism. Interesting reading for all I think...

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]
EDIT NOTE.. OKI, I just HAD to know, so I started to research amnesty international, and found a heap of papers articles and stuff.. This is the true thing though, but so many things need complete documentation of the rules...

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]

[norompanlasolas]

i am antispanish (i really hate that its the least liberal country of europe, that the catholic church has still so much power, that the army is still ruled by franco's supporters, that we were ruled by franco for 40 years, that authorities dont allow to put condom dispensing machines in most unis, that the rightwinged popular party is in power, that...)

also antibritish (i really hate the sun newspaper, margaret thatcher, their pompous assed royalty, their tories, man utd, the fact that they dont give the falklands back to argentina, and margaret thatcher again... i really really hate her).

and i could go on with this with a lot of countries... obviously, im kidding (well, not with the thatcher thing). but my point is that i think nobody here hates the us or their people. but, the actions of the us government are a hole different thing.

other than that, america doesnt interest me anything more than sweden... hey, not that there is anything wrong with sweden. we are playing them in the world cup (arg) and they have the most beautiful women.

eerhm... my post got a little random, didnt it? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Micah Foehammer]

I've sat back patiently, followed this thread and tried to understand where everyone is coming from. So here is my two dollars on this:

to address the ORIGINAL thread, I totally disagree with all of you who think that the Al-Queda and Taliban prisoners are being mistreated at the Guantanamo Bay facilities. I have seen other "detention" facilities around the world up close (fortunately not as a detainee) and everything I have seen on the Gitmo facilities indicates that the prisoners are being treated as humanely as possible, and quite frankly, in better conditions than countries where some of the complaints are coming from (e.g Malaysia). Keep in mind that, according to some press reports, at least SOME of the detainees have vowed to kill their jailors. Please try to remember that. No prisoners have been beaten; none have been summarily executed; their health is looked after; there are fed, clothed and given access to the Koran. So where is the mistreatment people? WHERE???

Now, as to some of the other issues raised here. Please allow us our outrage and anger, if you would be so kind. We appreciate your sympathies over the deaths of 9/11 and the steps your governments are taking NOW to help combat terrorism, but remember that this was an attack on US soil. Not in Munich, Madrid, Amsterdam or Paris. Don't presume to tell us how we SHOULD feel. That's presumptive at best and insulting at worst. Many of us felt this tragedy very deeply. And if we feel like waving the flag a little right now, for God's sake just let us and don't carry on about it. Don't take it personally and try not to be offended by it. And if we want to wave the flag a little bit, well, just let us get it out of our systems. Sure, sometimes we take things to extremes, but my goodness, aren't you used to it by NOW - especially those of you who claim to understand the collective American psyche so well????

Someone posted this comment - "What most Americans don't seem to grasp is that the whole notion of hating a nation (or loving it for that matter) is just... illogical to most other countries." Oh really? History is full of counter examples - India / Pakistan; Iraq / Iran; most of the Middle East vs Israel - Turkey / Greece. Need any more examples? History is FULL of them. This is a country of over 300 million people (give or take a few million) and to presuppose that you understand what the collective populace of this country thinks is laughable. BTW, Loving a country blindly is not a uniquely American concept. I believe that the term for that is Chauvanism, and it was coined by a Frenchman. But for what it is worth, I personally believe that most American do not look on this as an US versus THEM (arab), but that is just my opinion - I don't feel that way and most of my friends don't either. But regardless, what is clear is that Bin Laden does think that way - he has taken his hatred of the US to an extreme, wrapped it in a package of religious fervor and dogma and tried to turn this into a Muslim/Arab against the USA. And worse still he makes no distinction between military and civilian targets. Tracking him down and capturing him and his murdering associates is no different than tracking down any other murderer. He may BELIEVE that his cause is just, but that gives him NO right to take innocent lives.

So, if you want to sit back and presume to judge our motives, our actions, our feelings, you are entitled to do so. As the forum rules stae, you don't have to agree with someone, but you do have to respect their right to express an opinion. So go ahead and flame us if that's your style, presume that you understand us, judge us if that is your want. You can even hate us. I don't care, because for the most part it's not your country that is under attack now (with some exceptions here of course) .... I personally will rest easier knowing that those bastards in Guantanamo are behind bars.

[Donut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by norompanlasolas:


also antibritish (i really hate the sun newspaper, margaret thatcher, their pompous assed royalty, their tories, man utd, the fact that they dont give the falklands back to argentina, and margaret thatcher again... i really really hate her).

---

Shit norm, I must be anti British as well

[Konfuzed and Zany]

quote:

---

Originally posted by norompanlasolas:
i am antispanish (i really hate that its the least liberal country of europe, that the catholic church has still so much power, that the army is still ruled by franco's supporters, that we were ruled by franco for 40 years, that authorities dont allow to put condom dispensing machines in most unis, that the rightwinged popular party is in power, that...)

also antibritish (i really hate the sun newspaper, margaret thatcher, their pompous assed royalty, their tories, man utd, the fact that they dont give the falklands back to argentina, and margaret thatcher again... i really really hate her).

and i could go on with this with a lot of countries... obviously, im kidding (well, not with the thatcher thing). but my point is that i think nobody here hates the us or their people. but, the actions of the us government are a hole different thing.

other than that, america doesnt interest me anything more than sweden... hey, not that there is anything wrong with sweden. we are playing them in the world cup (arg) and they have the most beautiful women.

eerhm... my post got a little random, didnt it? [img]smile.gif[/img]

---

What kinda Cruel person would be anti-man utd

[Melusine]

Micah - so far in this thread:

No one has been flaming Americans for wanting to wave their flag and avenge the 9/11 deaths

No one not from America has presumed to know what you are feeling with regard to the attack


So please repeat that quote you put in your post yourself again, and realise it works both ways.

[norompanlasolas]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Donut:
Shit norm, I must be anti British as well

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Konfuzed and Zany:
What kinda Cruel person would be anti-man utd

---

LOL [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: norompanlasolas ]

[Sir Taliesin]

What is Anti-Man Utd any way? And I thought Ireland was the most conservative country in Europe. Didn't realize Spain was so strict. Have Cousin who was in the Navy and Stationed in Spain. He loved it there, because they were so open!

[Ronn_Bman]

I think the IRC has made it clear the terrorists are being treated humanely. The question about them being afforded the rights as POWs under the Geneva Convention is what has (mostly) been argued. Mostly the question has been about legal rights, and that is being argued at the highest levels of government. Secretary of State Powell wants to reclassify them.

Regarding the earlier point, if a country that has signed the GC goes to war with someone who has not they DO still have to follow it's rules despite the fact the other country did not sign. Now if the non-signatories fighters violate the rules of the GC (which they haven't signed!?!?!) then their soldiers may lose those protections.

Personally, I believe the Taliban military are POWs, but the Al-Queta terrorist are not! The AQ were not fighting for the Taliban or Afghanistan. The AQ were fighting for the survival of their terrorist organization. They represent no government or nation, and as such do not qualify for POW status. They should be treated humanely, but not carelessly. Using manacles, chains, and kneeling them in an uncomfortable position for safety purposes is pretty understandable considering these are the guys from the prison uprising, and those who killed their Pakistani gaurds during transport.

On the other hand, inhumane treatment is what has been promised to the world by the terrorists who have taken a Washington Post journalist hostage. Of course there are those who will say, if we afforded those in Camp X-Ray POW status it wouldn't have happened...