Pagan coven seeks hate crime charges vs Christian group

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Good post, and that's a perfect example of tolerance, a virtue that could do with being a bit more widespread if you ask me.

[Talthyr Malkaviel]

Originally posted by Yorick: "Christians believe because they"

I've got one that I think might work actually...
Christians believe because they do, I believe different, big deal.

[Arnabas]

Well.
Not much else to say right now. Just didn't understand the "maybe you need to learn for yourself as an adult" line. Ah, well. Don't want an argument or anything. As I say, Yorick, I think it's great that you have your faith, and kudos to you for defending it with more than "I'll be right in heaven, you'll be wrong in hell", which I have heard before. Thanks. I appreciate intelligent, mature people [img]smile.gif[/img]
It can be easy to fall into the name-calling trap, but I prefer to take the high road when I can (but I am human...) I am glad to see that you do, too.
Every religion, every society has its saints and sinners. Too bad we tend to focus so much on the bad.
Yorick, I wish you well and look forward to any future conversation we might have. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

This thread - and the incident that sparked it - has really been on my mind lately, and has given me a new perspective on my role as a Christian.

I get very tired of hearing generalized insults from atheists directed towards Christians. But the more I think about it, the more I understand the underlying anger in thier messages.

Christians are supposed to witness to non-believers about the love of Jesus Christ and the sacrifice He made to grant us Salvation. Unfortunately, the only thing atheists usually hear are "You're gonna BUURRRRNNN for your wicked ways". It seems most Christians either don't know or have forgotten how to witness and spread the news of Christ's love. Just screaming at someone that "I'm right and you're wrong" isn't going to work.

I've read several comments from atheists in this thread (and the various Religion Threads). With the exception of Arnabas, NONE of them seem to have had a Christian express or show God's Love to them. All they've heard is "If you don't turn, you're gonna burn".

Jesus' entire ministry was based on showing love, mercy, and kindness to your fellow man. The New Testament repeatedly instructs us to "love our enemies" and "if they hunger to not only feed them, but to give them drink also". God loves every single person that is drawing breath right now. No person is of any greater or lesser value in His eyes. Certainly He is saddened by atheists who choose not to believe in Him, but I feel He is even more disappointed with Christians who apparantly can't show atheists (or others of different beliefs) how much God does love them.

Christians seem to forget that they also sin against God every single day. That is an absolute fact from which there is no escape. And we have no excuse, because we DO (or at least should) know better than to do some of the things we do. We have experienced God's Holy Grace firsthand, but too many times, we fail to extend that love to our fellow man if he disagrees with our theology.

It all comes down to respect and love. If more atheists were shown the respect, love, and tolerance that Arnabas experienced, then maybe they would have a reason to change their beliefs. Even if they don't, Christians should still treat them with love and respect.

Jesus instructed the Apostles (and all Christians that were to follow) to TEACH their fellow man about God's LOVE, MERCY, and GRACE. There is not a single example in the entire Bible where God instructs his followers to "break up any pagan ritual they happen to see". Not once does He tell them to interrupt a service being held by a different religion. He DOES tell them to preach to those who worship pagan gods, but there is a BIG difference in preaching TO a person as opposed to preaching AT a person.

I want to thank Aviendha for sending a PM that gave me a better understanding of the atheist point of view regarding religion in general and Christians in particular.

As this incident showed, Christians can often be overbearing and intolerant of others. It's time we changed.

[Yorick]

Cherek, great post as usual and truly spoken, but we should be careful about generalisingly criticising our bretheren. I do know many, no countless Christians who are practicing what you're preaching. A vocal minority is not a majority.

We all need to change for the better, but not all in the same areas.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Arnabas: Well. Not much else to say right now. Just didn't understand the "maybe you need to learn for yourself as an adult" line. Ah, well. Don't want an argument or anything. As I say, Yorick, I think it's great that you have your faith, and kudos to you for defending it with more than "I'll be right in heaven, you'll be wrong in hell", which I have heard before. Thanks. I appreciate intelligent, mature people [img]smile.gif[/img] It can be easy to fall into the name-calling trap, but I prefer to take the high road when I can (but I am human...) I am glad to see that you do, too. Every religion, every society has its saints and sinners. Too bad we tend to focus so much on the bad. Yorick, I wish you well and look forward to any future conversation we might have. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

Thanks Arnabas. [img]smile.gif[/img] Right back at you.

I hope you didn't take the "learning/adult" line the wrong way. If I may explain, being taught about Christianity as a kid can be like being taught about marriage as a kid. Christianity, like marriage, is a relationship. Many of the things we are taught as children about the bible are either simplified, over our heads, or impossible to convey without having the experience of being in the relationship.

Regarding Christ, the best learning takes place within the individual.

You would of course understand this, having assessed and chosen your own path. I'm suggesting that the same approach be applied to the bible.

Am I making sense? I'm fried at the moment. Mentally spent. A taxing weekend....

Put simply the bible can be a source of incredible, incredible life enhancing material, if read properly, with consideration given to context and the material as a whole.

The smaller stories make sense only in light of the larger picture.

Much like a few dots in POP art.

Take the book of Judges. If you look at the one story of Ehud and Eglon, where the lefthanded Ehud plunges a conceled knife into the tyrranical foreign king Eglon, you could well wonder "what the hell was that all about?"

However, read the whole book and a pattern emerges.
1.God and Israel are honky dory.
2.Israel ignore God and worship Baal/Ashera etc
3.God leaves them to their enemies (if you don't want me to help I won't) who invade and enslave Israel
4.Israel cry out to God for help
5.God sends a 'judge' a hero who saves Israel (Samson, Gideon etc)
6.God and Israel are honky dory
7.See point 2

and so on.....

The point being that the message becomes apparent only when the book is finished. Like a film usually is only truly understood when it's finished. Within that there are of course smaller 'subplots' that often contain pearls, but also oftne don't.

Song of Songs is all love poetry. At some points quite explicit.

What do we see? That God is into humans having fun. Loving each other. Relating.

But is a child going to understand all this? When a child starts school do they start with Jung and the Maquis De Sade?
Why then the equivialent with the Bible?

[Arnabas]

Don't worry, Yorick. You may be "fried", but I get you.I agree with most-- if not all of what you say. I just hope you see that there is beauty and truth in other points of view as well. I never believed that the mortal mind could totally comprehend the divine. In my view, the divind is like a tall building. You and I might be standing on different streets and seeing different sides. But It is ultimately the same building.
Hope I am saying this well. I am a bit fried, too. And a bit jazzed from having just seen Spider-Man. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Arnabas: Don't worry, Yorick. You may be "fried", but I get you.I agree with most-- if not all of what you say. I just hope you see that there is beauty and truth in other points of view as well. I never believed that the mortal mind could totally comprehend the divine. In my view, the divind is like a tall building. You and I might be standing on different streets and seeing different sides. But It is ultimately the same building. Hope I am saying this well. I am a bit fried, too. And a bit jazzed from having just seen Spider-Man. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Agreed. All we can do is draw analysis from our own experience.

How was Spider Man? I'm psyched about seeing it, The Clone Wars, Matrix 2, LoTR 2. What a great couple of years for Fantasy/Sci Fi.

[Arnabas]

Yeah, this summer will be great!
I really enjoyed Spider-Man. Some of the purists might be upset at the changes (the whole web shooter thing still annoys me...), but all in all, I thought it was really good. I have no real complaints. I would have liked them to be a little bit closer to the original story, but I am more than happy with what they did. Getting Spidey's costume basically right was a big relief. Usually costumes are changed to look "less like a comic book".
Hello?
Now, here's hoping for episode 2 to be as good as the trailers make it look.