Science- Religion or Not?

[DeSoya]

I agree. Knowledge is knowledge.

So is all knowledge religion then? You've made several blanket statements about knowledge. What exactly are you trying to say? I believe that there are different types of knowledge and different aims for acquiring knowledge. I imagine that you can agree with me when I say that just because it something is knowable doesn't mean you or anyone else needs to know it.

How, why, what, who. Religion involves introspective science, and science that deals with the "why", with understanding God (the "who"), and the knowledge to attaining self harmony (the "how"). Biology and archaeology deal with the "what".

Interesting that you should say that Religion involves introspective science. The noted theologin Byron Cox states in his book "The Secularization of Society" that the natural aim of the christian faith is in fact secularization. That science is a secular institution and that Christianity is driven towards secularization speaks volumes about the difference between science and religion.

It seems to me as though you are saying that religion is a science. Am I correct in this?

So Biology and Archeology deal with the What. Is this the What of humanity? As in What are We and What did we come from? What about math and physics? Where do they fit in?

Even so, the causes were greed, fear, politics and conflicting needs. As ever the cause of war. The religion was irrelevent

I disagree. The religion placed the need before the people. Certainly greed, fear and politics factored in to the wars of Reformation, but the battles were fought in the name of Religion. The politics were about Religion and the fear was fear of God and the church. Greed fueled the Indulgences but Religion was the cause. If you dissect any war enough you can eventually find whatever it is you are looking for. Heck! If you analyze anything you can find something you're looking for. Huss was burned at the stake for suggesting that the lay people be able to take part in the Eucharist and realize the miracle of Christ's transubstantiation. That seems pretty religiously oriented to me. What did the church have to fear? Certainly the spectre of public drunkeness raised it's ugly head (that strong communion wine) but I'm sure some stronger edict of prohibition could have been issued. Or Huss could have been refused. Burning him seems a little strong to me.
I think that dismisal of all blame from Religion as the cause of strife is a short-sighted claim. Nothing that we (humanity) have ever done is completely good and pure and holy (except maybe Ironworks [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). Everything has some sort of wretched part of it. Especially institutions like religion and science.

Sorry about all the questions at the start. I'm really curious. If I come off as a smart aleck it is certainly not my intention so excuse me. I offer up my most humble apolgies in advance.

DeSoya

[Yorick]

DeSoya, no offense, but did you read my previous posts before posting yourself? If you had you wouldn't have needed to ask those questions, as they're already answered.

Christianity is a relationship. Theology is a science. (Note the OLOGY after theo. Theos = God)

The dictionary definition I posted earlier INCLUDES the SCIENCE of THEOLOGY in its definition!

Are you guys reading this?

Before entering a debate we must define our terms.

I'll post the definition for science again for those unable to read page 1.

1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding 2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study {the science of theology} b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge {have it down to a science} 3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE 4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws {culinary science} 5 capitalized : CHRISTIAN SCIENCE

I used Geology and Biology as examples of other sciences, not declaring they were the only sciences... sheesh.

As I have said three or four times, Religions involve science. They use science and at times are science, by using the definition of the word used in the English languages.

If you are going to use the word science in another context then please explain what it is.

Science is not limited to evolution theory.
Science is not limited to chemical experiments.

Science is KNOWLEDGE.
As I posted, biology, geology, astronomy, archaeology, all deal with the "what".
Theology, sociology, psychology deal with the "why" and the "who" and the "how".
Goegraphy, astronomy and cartography deal with the "where"

These are examples of course, not finite definitions.

Thankyou

Hugh

[Yorick]

DeSoya, I strongly disagree regarding religion and war. War is an example of the failure of religion. It is worthless looking at people using a cause for their own ends. You have to look at how closely a movement matches the teachings it supposedly follows.

If I called myself a Russian would you believe me? It's pretty naive to presume people to be genuine Buddhists or Christians simply because they pay lip service. By their fruits you shall know them.

Secondly, even the most ardent religious person is HUMAN, and prone to failure and succumbing to the said greed and fear. Again, where conflict involving these passions arise, it is a failure on the individuals part to maintain their chosen path however momentarily that may be.

That is not the religions fault, but the humans.

As I already posted, do we blame scientific discoveries for nuclear warfare, or the humans that misused the knowledge.

Again, this has all been said before. It's a good idea to read over posts before rehashing old arguments. It's the quickest way to getting a thread closed.

[theifprowess]

IMO

i believe in myself i do not believe there ever was a god nor will there ever be a god. can god die? according to religion no he cant. but according to science all thing have an expected life time. there is no VIRGIN mary just some women if any that didnt want daddy to know she was messin with one of the sheep herders. science has proven that people can not have an emaculate conception. only asexually animals such as some frogs have the ability to birth on their own. and thats because it is proven that they have both sex organs.(now hypothetically per say if miss mary did have a asexually child, her and the baby would have been burned as witches for herecy and the ability to produce babies unnaturally). back then mentality speaking there.

religion i feel is what brings disorder and chaos to this world. its seperates people on beliefs and biases. people do not have faith in themselves. they put faith and belief above themselves. does a man catch a football and bring it into the endzone because god helped him or willed him? no. he has his own individual talents he fails to see himself.

and if it werent for religion most if not all wars in the world would have never happened or occured. men have this sense that since we have the inept ability to understand and to learn more than the common animal does that makes us better. we were choosen for a higher purpose. god must have choose us to preach his name.

it takes a few intelligent people to show the rest of the "dumb" world that they are wrong. and time and time again these smart people have proven the disproved. the world is not FLAT the sun or shining ball in the sky doesnt circle us but we circle it. electricity and or lightning isnt the hand of "god" smitting man for being sinnful but charged electrons and magnetism. the ground doesnt shake because god is mad at fellow man but because of shifting in techtonic plates.

we are animals. we dont like to think of ourselves as animals cause we use more of our brain and our ability to think is enhanced.women bitch at men that men are dogs. well i am proud to say like every other male ANIMAL out there that it is our male instincts that drive us to sleep arround or in animallistic sence breed. it is a law of nature that male animals spread their seed not for fun but for the assurance of the survival of their species. we just somehow make fun of it.

do you think if there was a god he would have willed man to be as destructive as he is?

i know not all religions beleive in a god per say but a man of great influence. hell allah has successfully got an entire race of people to believe that eating pork is dirty cause a pig eats its own sh*t. they also believe that if they die for a good cause they get to goto paradise and are blessed with 70 virgins. hell maybe the families of those victims of the twin towers attacks will feel better knowing that the men that hijacked those planes went to a better place cause allah willed it.

hell i find it funny that the world still holds a grudge against the jews. because they were the ones that according to history killed jesus christ. now did every jewish man and women kill jesus christ. or did one man of certain religious pretext kill jesus. how would the world respond if jesus was not killed by jewish descent rather christian.not possible right? why would we kill our own kindred? yet we do it constantly in the streets of our cities.

goto prison and ask every cellmate if they believe in god. if they do why would they commit crimes against humanity like that if they are in touch with religion like that. people who do not beleive there is a god and or higher person believe in their self respecting abilities and see people for what they are. ask those same people in prison and you will find almost not one of them does not believe in god.

a person who doesnt believe in god has a better sense of what is right and what is wrong. they arent as hell bent and destructive and someone who does believe in god.in the end it wont be the people who dont believe in god that brings this world down but the very people who do believe in god that will destroy this earth.

thats why i would pick science over religion science can prove it. religion you have to believe in it. and i already believe in myself and my abilities to live out my life as the days go by.

one last thing to note.did you pick your religion or did your parents bring you into it ? if so say if you were catholic, would your parents get upset if you converted to jewdism or buddist? why or why not?

[Mouse]

Fascinating debate. Here is a detailed discussion of war and conflict as portrayed in the Bible. Makes for interesting reading

[Leonis]

[quote]Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane:

Is that right... so it is NOT possible for a christian to 'fall'... say, commit an unforgivable sin. Nothing is certain, in a moment of weakness, you *could* do something you may regret `till the end of your days, and maybe beyond... never think for one moment you are completly safe. Sin is always there...

Calaethis, this is not how I believe it works. It is about the heart. Love, repentance, commitment and intent.
If a person has become a Christian, then a last sin before they die, without a chance to 'say sorry' does not condem them to hell. Nor does it allow them a life of 'do as you please' because they know no matter what, they're going to heaven. If they believe this, they haven't truely repented.
Repentance is a wholistic choice - you don't just repent for individual sins but for all your sins. Commitment to Christ is a lifetime commitment (yes some can and do reneg though). Those who have honestly repented through Jesus Christ, love God, and live their lives trying to follow the teachings of Christ and desiring forgiveness, will not IMO be punished for eternity for screwing it up sometimes. (or a lot)

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

Originally posted by Leonis: quote: Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane: Is that right... so it is NOT possible for a christian to 'fall'... say, commit an unforgivable sin. Nothing is certain, in a moment of weakness, you *could* do something you may regret `till the end of your days, and maybe beyond... never think for one moment you are completly safe. Sin is always there... Calaethis, this is not how I believe it works. It is about the heart. Love, repentance, commitment and intent. If a person has become a Christian, then a last sin before they die, without a chance to 'say sorry' does not condem them to hell. Nor does it allow them a life of 'do as you please' because they know no matter what, they're going to heaven. If they believe this, they haven't truely repented. Repentance is a wholistic choice - you don't just repent for individual sins but for all your sins. Commitment to Christ is a lifetime commitment (yes some can and do reneg though). Those who have honestly repented through Jesus Christ, love God, and live their lives trying to follow the teachings of Christ and desiring forgiveness, will not IMO be punished for eternity for screwing it up sometimes. (or a lot)

er I think you misunderstood me... ah well never mind. I totally agree with you on what you just said. Im not a catholic... never that. not that I have anyhting agaisnt them.

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane: er I think you misunderstood me... ah well never mind. I totally agree with you on what you just said. Im not a catholic... never that. not that I have anyhting agaisnt them.

how so?

[Calaethis Dragonsbane]

does it truly matter? just let it go, ok? im not really in the mood for a religious debate right now.

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane: does it truly matter? just let it go, ok? im not really in the mood for a religious debate right now.

No worries.