Gender Question/Poll

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: Of course I'm sure you realise that your 'noticing' higher wisdom/charisma is women is probably not proof that they actually ARE more wise or charismatic, but that you are male and are differentially affected by male and female charisma

Oh yes, women can be very... charismatic [img]graemlins/1drool.gif[/img] Tee hee hee. *ahem*. Yes. Well, in a purely professional context you understand...

I do of course admit that men are biologically built to be stronger than women, and while some women will be stronger than some men, on average men are stronger than women, and have the potential to be stronger. However in fantasy games I really don't care about that . Especially in 2nd edition, where no matter how much adventuring you do, how much wielding of your heavy axe or sword, you NEVER get any stronger except by magical means, I see all the stats as something more intrinsic to the person, not as reflective of practice or experience or how many bench presses you do, or indeed, your sex. The fact is, there is no difference to how strong you can make your female character compared to a man, so any limiting you do is YOUR preference, not something that is meant to occur. So for me, men and women can be equally strong. And just so my female fighters aren't really unattractive body-builder types, their high strength doesn't necessarily result in huge muscles and thick necks in my mind

wisely and charismatically put Aelia

[ 08-23-2003, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Luvian: You don't need to have muscle mass the size of Conan to be a soldier. In fact, almost none of them are. I'm pretty sure women in the military are able to do the same training the men do. I know last time I was in a martial arts class, the teacher gave the same training to both sex, all women were able to keep up and some were physically superior to me. What's the difference between a 14 str female fighter and a 14 str male fighter? None. I don't see how saying women are not as good as men in martial things is not sexist. What you have between your leg has not effect on how good you can be with a sword, bow, or gun. It also has no effect on how good you can be in any given job.

Luvian, my man, you're getting us all wrong here buddy [img]smile.gif[/img]
No one ever said men are better fighters, we just said that men have a tendency to develope denser muscle mass than women. And in the context of AD&D putting a higher strength score (ie: 'numerical' muscle mass) helps out a great deal in making your fighter more effective.
I've seen many fine female fighters (and I mean these mamas are fiiiiiine heh heh), however, most of them are much smaller than their male counterparts. And when going toe-to-toe with a male of equal skill and training, yet stronger muscle mass they tend to come in second best. WHich is fine. They still do well, and many female martial artists could still wipe the floor with me due to their diligence in training and general martial talent. However, being physically stronger than alot of them, if I put in the same amount of effort into my training (Wu Shu Kung Fu by the way), I could probably defeat them. Nothing sexist here man. We all just make the best use of what we've got...

[Melusine]

To answer the original question Amber, I always play females. The only time I started a male character was once in BG2, when I wanted to try one of the romances only available to men. I never finished the game BTW.
Of course, in Planescape: Torment, you're forced to play as a guy, but I never had the least bit of trouble with that - no problems identifying with the main character or anything. I suppose that is due at least to some extent to how well the game was written.
Oh and for the record, my boyfriend always plays as a male, has never played a female except when he played Tomb Raider years ago

[Luvian]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: You don't need to have muscle mass the size of Conan to be a soldier. In fact, almost none of them are. I'm pretty sure women in the military are able to do the same training the men do. I know last time I was in a martial arts class, the teacher gave the same training to both sex, all women were able to keep up and some were physically superior to me. What's the difference between a 14 str female fighter and a 14 str male fighter? None. I don't see how saying women are not as good as men in martial things is not sexist. What you have between your leg has not effect on how good you can be with a sword, bow, or gun. It also has no effect on how good you can be in any given job.

Luvian, my man, you're getting us all wrong here buddy [img]smile.gif[/img]
No one ever said men are better fighters, we just said that men have a tendency to develope denser muscle mass than women. And in the context of AD&D putting a higher strength score (ie: 'numerical' muscle mass) helps out a great deal in making your fighter more effective.
I've seen many fine female fighters (and I mean these mamas are fiiiiiine heh heh), however, most of them are much smaller than their male counterparts. And when going toe-to-toe with a male of equal skill and training, yet stronger muscle mass they tend to come in second best. WHich is fine. They still do well, and many female martial artists could still wipe the floor with me due to their diligence in training and general martial talent. However, being physically stronger than alot of them, if I put in the same amount of effort into my training (Wu Shu Kung Fu by the way), I could probably defeat them. Nothing sexist here man. We all just make the best use of what we've got... [/QUOTE]When you are as big as Conan, you are slow and can't move much. In the real world, I'd say those would make the worse fighter ever. What good is an exceptional strength if you can't hit people? People with less strength are usually faster and more dexterous. Sure, you might be able to cut down a tree with one swing of that axe, but get stabed in the heart, and you are dead, no need to be strong to do that, either.

[Gabrielles blades]

im fairly sure men and women are able to develop the same muscle strength

there is a difference in where it is easier to build on each body however

on males arms are easy, while on females legs are

a 200 lb woman vs a 200 lb man each with the same body fat index will probably have equal muscle mass/strength just in different spots (arms vs legs)

The reason why the typical male is stronger than the typical female is that the majority of women weigh a lot less than the majority of men;

im not sure what the statistics on male vs female body fat index is but on average theyre probably fairly similar - this has to do with the percentage of the male/female population that exercises instead of growing bear bellies -p

But anyhow! thats all besides the point, strength doesnt make you a better fighter necessarily; equally skilled man of high strength vs an equally skilled woman of low strength could be a fairly even fight; as was noted the mans body would be slower while the womans might be more agile thus evening out the odds.

But thats all a tangent to the original topic...

[The Hierophant]

The larger muscles may make you slower, but that would run contrary to everything I've ever seen in relation to speed and strength. Well muscled folk run faster, punch faster, hit harder, grapple harder, and additionally their increased bulk makes them harder to grab hold of in grappling situations.

But I can see where this discussion is going (or rather, where it has already gone), and let's just agree to disagree shall we? I don't think either 'side' is going to budge, so let's just call it quits here.

[Cloudbringer]

Great discussions going on! I had company for the last few days and just found this grew a lot!

So maybe I could have done my poll and asked how many of you guys who play female characters do it for the 'cute/exotic' portraits, how many do it for the 'experience in roleplaying' and how many do it for the thrill of 'making a woman character do what you want her to do'?

Hmm, I'm missing something.. Ok, hang on..yes, and how many people choose male or female characters based on their class or race? (IE: you think a sorcerer/wizard is 'weak' so a female or a half orc fighter could be a female but a human Paly has to be a male). Basically how many attribute certain characteristics to a class/race and usually make the gender choice accordingly?

Did I cover most of the reasons for gender choices?

From the thread so far, it seems that most of the women players are saying they choose female characters exclusively or almost always with a few rare exceptions, while quite a large number of male players play either male or female and a large number play female characters on a regular basis.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: The larger muscles may make you slower, but that would run contrary to everything I've ever seen in relation to speed and strength. Well muscled folk run faster, punch faster, hit harder, grapple harder, and additionally their increased bulk makes them harder to grab hold of in grappling situations. But I can see where this discussion is going (or rather, where it has already gone), and let's just agree to disagree shall we? I don't think either 'side' is going to budge, so let's just call it quits here.

I take it you have never seen an extreme bodybuilder move. They even have trouble moving their arm backward. Some can barely swim.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Luvian: I take it you have never seen an extreme bodybuilder move. They even have trouble moving their arm backward. Some can barely swim.

I was talking about hugely-muscled fighters, not human statues, err, extreme bodybuilders. I HAVE however seen Mike Tyson move, he moves very very fast and punches very very hard.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: I take it you have never seen an extreme bodybuilder move. They even have trouble moving their arm backward. Some can barely swim.

I was talking about hugely-muscled fighters, not human statues, err, extreme bodybuilders. I HAVE however seen Mike Tyson move, he moves very very fast and punches very very hard. [/QUOTE]It was said earlier that women could get "heavy-muscled" but not "extreme" like the world's best bodybuilders. If you dismiss extreme bodybuilders, then there is simply no difference at all betwen a men and a women.