Gender Question/Poll

[WOLFGIR]

Cloudy.
Lets see here-- (Grr opens a new window,browse to post.. ahh..)

Hmm, about why I played females, I thought I gave a perfectly none Freudian answer there. My party simply live longer if I have more females in it

And to get them to do what you want.. Are you kidding me? What games are you actually referring to when you say Role playing Cloudy?? Your version seems "funnier", I always start cursing cause male or female, come some badies and the complete group (unless you can solo a game, or 3D first person view) the entire party start behaving like crazed geese with suicidal tendencies running around in some strange form of folk dancing. Bah, I hit that pause button and lay out dance flow charts for them to follow and luckily they don't try to make a shortcut by running around the entire map..

Now about class and race genders.. Hmm
A bit more intriguing cause it would really reflect the oh so fascinating discussion of my mom is stronger then your dad discussion that ONCE more have sneaked up on us.

To that I can only say, my pseudo dragon is more weird then your quasi gender bender. If anyone is looking for realism in fantasy worlds.. Well try and role play a pilot in MS flight simulator instead

I have no problem with creating a really strong female paladin and a weakling male wizard or anything like that. It is all in the persona, or rather from my point of view, make the best of each character to do what they are supposed to do. Power gaming. (And no.. that is not typicle male )

[ 08-24-2003, 04:50 AM: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Luvian: It was said earlier that women could get "heavy-muscled" but not "extreme" like the world's best bodybuilders. If you dismiss extreme bodybuilders, then there is simply no difference at all betwen a men and a women.

You're treating a notion of probability like a logical theorem man, and as always, putting weird words in mouth that I never said. There is a huge difference between men and women in the probability that men have potential to be more lethal fighters than women, on average. Now, you vehemently stress that women can make good fighters too, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, where our OPINIONS differ is where we consider this possibility to be of any major consequence when making our AD&D characters (come on man, jesus christ we're being pathetic here, you and I ). Our entire argument spawns from a difference in preference of fictional characters. Now, I repeat, let's agree to disagree on this! Ok?

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: Cloudy. Lets see here-- (Grr opens a new window,browse to post.. ahh..) Hmm, about why I played females, I thought I gave a perfectly none Freudian answer there. My party simply live longer if I have more females in it And to get them to do what you want.. Are you kidding me? What games are you actually referring to when you say Role playing Cloudy?? Your version seems "funnier", I always start cursing cause male or female, come some badies and the complete group (unless you can solo a game, or 3D first person view) the entire party start behaving like crazed geese with suicidal tendencies running around in some strange form of folk dancing. Bah, I hit that pause button and lay out dance flow charts for them to follow and luckily they don't try to make a shortcut by running around the entire map.. Now about class and race genders.. Hmm A bit more intriguing cause it would really reflect the oh so fascinating discussion of my mom is stronger then your dad discussion that ONCE more have sneaked up on us. To that I can only say, my pseudo dragon is more weird then your quasi gender bender. If anyone is looking for realism in fantasy worlds.. Well try and role play a pilot in MS flight simulator instead I have no problem with creating a really strong female paladin and a weakling male wizard or anything like that. It is all in the persona, or rather from my point of view, make the best of each character to do what they are supposed to do. Power gaming. (And no.. that is not typicle male )

Aww, Wolfie, non-Freudian? LOL You took out half the fun! *teehee*

OMG, I'm literally laughing til I cry over the 'crazed geese' description! [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] That is so appropriate and funny! Get out the flow charts!!

Well, I guess I always figure my dwarf cleric/fighter can be female to balance out a party (in IWD) since hey, dwarves are tough, right?!

[Attalus]

I'd say I am doing it for all three, Cloudy. Viconia is really fun to rolepaly, she has a great portrait, and she does exactly what I want -usually. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Luvian]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: It was said earlier that women could get "heavy-muscled" but not "extreme" like the world's best bodybuilders. If you dismiss extreme bodybuilders, then there is simply no difference at all betwen a men and a women.

You're treating a notion of probability like a logical theorem man, and as always, putting weird words in mouth that I never said. There is a huge difference between men and women in the probability that men have potential to be more lethal fighters than women, on average. Now, you vehemently stress that women can make good fighters too, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, where our OPINIONS differ is where we consider this possibility to be of any major consequence when making our AD&D characters (come on man, jesus christ we're being pathetic here, you and I ). Our entire argument spawns from a difference in preference of fictional characters. Now, I repeat, let's agree to disagree on this! Ok? [/QUOTE]Well... I'm not putting words in your mouth, you're not the only one that commented in our little discussion. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

This has nothing to do with the game, either.

I simply take offense when someone claim to explain what is realistic, and then goes on to say women are only good in non-martial classes. This is not realistic. Women can be as good a fighter as any men.

And I'm talking about real life, not a game. You see, I have this strange idea that men and women are equal. No if or but here. Simply equal.

Women can be as strong as any men. Why are they weaker on average? That come from their lifestyle and preference, not the genes. I don't know about you, but here, most men and women think that heavily muscled male-lookalike women are not very pretty. In fact, if I told a women "Cut those hair and nail short, start bodybuilding, play football with us and come working with me at that movers company." She'd think I'm crazy. She could do it, but it's not most women's prefered lifestyle.

So yes, I agree that most women, be it in real life or a fantasy medieval world, would not be good fighter if they picked up a sword without training first (but so would I). But it's not realistic to say they could not be good in that role.

[The Hierophant]

alright then. Sounds good. After all that fuss that was all you needed to say [img]smile.gif[/img]

[IAmThumper]

Okay first I'd like to say sorry to Cloudbringer for hijacking the topic. Sorry.

I've been trying to come up with a way to start a new topic but I can't find the words to do it correctly. If someone with more word power then me is reading then please(I'm begging) start a new topic. At any rate it's already introduced here sooo.... (sorry)

I have to admit this has gotten under my skin (I've spent about 3 hours on this response). Everyone feel free to attack me on what I'm about to say. I am tired of hiding from this topic.
If you took the average and I do mean average man, not the average man enroled in a karate course, the average man and an average woman, not the average military woman, the average man is going to be bigger and stronger than the average woman. Period. Sure it has cultural links but it is also genetic! If you don't believe this then you must also not believe in the theory of evolution! It is not about who is better it is about what is!
For those that want to call me sexist go ahead! Cuz I'm not being sexist!
I'm tired of dealing with people that are so worried about being called sexist that anything that even remotely seems to be putting down a woman is taken for sexism! It undermines mens ability to be proud of who they are! It's stupid and I'm not going to stand for it.
I know I'm coming off a little strong, annoyed or angry but that's because I feel strongly about this. I believe in equal rights. I believe in the unlimited potential of the human race (for good and evil). I am not foolish enough to believe there are no differences between the sexes. To go through life with blinders on just increases the chance of getting lost.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by IAmThumper: Okay first I'd like to say sorry to Cloudbringer for hijacking the topic. Sorry. I've been trying to come up with a way to start a new topic but I can't find the words to do it correctly. If someone with more word power then me is reading then please(I'm begging) start a new topic. At any rate it's already introduced here sooo.... (sorry) I have to admit this has gotten under my skin (I've spent about 3 hours on this response). Everyone feel free to attack me on what I'm about to say. I am tired of hiding from this topic. If you took the average and I do mean average man, not the average man enroled in a karate course, the average man and an average woman, not the average military woman, the average man is going to be bigger and stronger than the average woman. Period. Sure it has cultural links but it is also genetic! If you don't believe this then you must also not believe in the theory of evolution! It is not about who is better it is about what is! For those that want to call me sexist go ahead! Cuz I'm not being sexist! I'm tired of dealing with people that are so worried about being called sexist that anything that even remotely seems to be putting down a woman is taken for sexism! It undermines mens ability to be proud of who they are! It's stupid and I'm not going to stand for it. I know I'm coming off a little strong, annoyed or angry but that's because I feel strongly about this. I believe in equal rights. I believe in the unlimited potential of the human race (for good and evil). I am not foolish enough to believe there are no differences between the sexes. To go through life with blinders on just increases the chance of getting lost.

Your lifestyle has nothing to do with your genetic.

Genetic is something fixed. Both your parents are chinese, you will be chinese. Both your parents have blue eyes and black hair, you will most likely have blue eyes and black hair.

What exactly is the gene that say women can not develop muscle? Is it passed down only in women like some of these disease that affect only one gender? How do you explain those heavily muscled female bodybuilders? Are they aliens or mutants?

Pictures of an alien

[ 08-25-2003, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Luvian: Well... I'm not putting words in your mouth, you're not the only one that commented in our little discussion. [img]tongue.gif[/img] This has nothing to do with the game, either. I simply take offense when someone claim to explain what is realistic, and then goes on to say women are only good in non-martial classes. This is not realistic. Women can be as good a fighter as any men.

That's simply not true, and your use of modern war and bodybuilders are both red herrings. Modern war is detached and often almost non-physical, it takes almost no muscle to pull a trigger... yet even given the low requirements of modern combat, the entry requirements have needed to be lowered for women to be able to succeed in sufficient quantities. There are no women that I'm aware of in the elite corps (Rangers, SEALS, Delta, etc...), where requirments are stringent and not being altered. So, fitness requirements have been lowered to allow more women into the military, when YOU'RE shot and needing evac, do you want a 120 lb. female medic to try to hump you back to safety? The whole "sexist" statement is a sham... it's not sexist to state a fact, and these are facts. I believe women can do virtually anything a man can do, but when it comes to physical prowess they can't compete, fact. Any physical endeavor out there (such as sports) seperates males and females so that women can participate competitively and not be overshadowed by men. Regarding military, if you look at the martial requirements of the middle ages (which would be a more appropriate comparison than modern warriors) then you'll find women would have a very difficult time. Heavy armor and wheapons, hand to hand combat that emphasizes the abilty to overpower, and ranged combat that requires huge upper body strength (ever draw a long bow?). And with regards to bodybuilders, they are a specialized sport where phyical appearance is stressed more than performance, they trade off flexibility in favor of mass. Those same men if trained for combat would be somewhat smaller but EXTREMELY fast, and agile. Watch a 250lb linebacker in an American football game, these guys are solid muscle, run 4.x second 40's, and can change direction on a dime... they are formidable.

Originally posted by Luvian: And I'm talking about real life, not a game. You see, I have this strange idea that men and women are equal. No if or but here. Simply equal.

Equal does not mean IDENTICAL... saying women and men need to be identical in order to be equal needs to be ridiculed as the joke of a feminist ideology that it is. They can show women beating up men on TV and in the movies as much as they want but that won't change the reality. Men and women are NOT identical, men ARE bigger, stronger, and CAN'T have babies... an ad campaign won't change any of those facts.

Originally posted by Luvian: Women can be as strong as any men. Why are they weaker on average? That come from their lifestyle and preference, not the genes.

More propeganda... don't believe it. It's ALL about the genes. Why do you think the Soviets made their female "super-athletes" by injecting them with testosterone?

Originally posted by Luvian: I don't know about you, but here, most men and women think that heavily muscled male-lookalike women are not very pretty. In fact, if I told a women "Cut those hair and nail short, start bodybuilding, play football with us and come working with me at that movers company." She'd think I'm crazy. She could do it, but it's not most women's prefered lifestyle. So yes, I agree that most women, be it in real life or a fantasy medieval world, would not be good fighter if they picked up a sword without training first (but so would I). But it's not realistic to say they could not be good in that role.

They could be quite good in that role as long as they never fought a man of equal skill but male stature. Annika Sorenson is an awesome golfer, very talented with a laser accurate shot... but she didn't make the cut because the guys can hit 50 yards past her, when you say that women can be just as good as men you're saying that she's just not talented enough or she'd be able to compete on the Tour... and you'd be wrong. She is absolutely talented enough to compete, but she's not STRONG enough. Feminist degrade the accomplishments of women by claiming there's no inherent differences between the genders. This "one size must fit all" Politically Correct approach to gender and roles will one day be looked back on as laughable... and that day can't come too soon.

[The Hierophant]

Thoran, I wish there was a 'salute' smilie. I'd be puttin' it right here in this post