Religion in Schools

[Chewbacca]

Here is the bill of rights. Amendment I is the the relevant part.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...lofrights.html
this page has a link to the full text of the constitution.

Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. Amendment III No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Amendment V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Amendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. Amendment VII In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law. Amendment VIII Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Amendment IX The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. Amendment X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[Stormymystic]

Originally posted by Zero Alpha: quote: Originally posted by Chewbacca: I believe this is the spirit of the constitutional seperation of church and state as well as being fair and equitable in general.

could you (or anyone) post a link to somewhere i can read the consitution, as i dont live in america. its hard to comment on something to havnt read [/QUOTE]http://constitution.by.net/

[Reeka]

The ONLY place, in my opinion, a discussion of religion has a place in a public school is in a history class. It is almost impossible to discuss history without some references to religion. I could extend this to sociology and anthropology classes as well (those I don't believe that those are often taught to school age children). Maybe in a geography class along with the nation's capital, currency, language, major religions, etc.

[Gangrell]

Weither relegion belongs in public schools is debatible, but it'll likely never work. There are so many different relegions no one wouldn't be able to keep up, plus there are also people that have discriminations against other relegions. That's why there are private schools, so people of one relegion can go to that one school. I personally have gone to both private schools and public schools, and I think that anymore they're trying to make the majority of the schools relegious or like it. Nearly all of the public schools in the area have to have dress code because they're afraid of "gang" symbols, but trust me on this, in this small town, there are no gangs [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But getting back to the point, I don't think relegion as in prayers and such in schools is impossible, just highly unlikely.

[robertthebard]

Reading through this thread, I kept flashing to the Truth.com TV ad about the tobacco company promoting their new cigarettes in an ice cream truck, and the one guy asking why in the world they would use an ice cream truck, while the camera is looking out the window of the truck, music blaring, being chased by a lot of kids. I must ask, what is the difference. My daughter is going through confirmation classes at her church, which should be noted, is not my church, which is as it should be. *Religion* belongs in church. Spirituality is with you always, and cannot be separated by the government. For those that do have a spiritual anchor, or are not atheists. I myself am Wiccan, and have no problem with what my daughter is doing, as it is her right to believe what she chooses to believe. If she should come to me at some point in her life and say she wanted to learn more about my beliefs, then I would teach her, but I don't force *my* religious beliefs on her.

How many Wiccan religious broadcasts do you see on public television stations? None. But my tv is blasted with Christian broadcasts on Sunday, until the sports shows come on. How many Muslim, Buhddist, or Islamic shows? There is a reason for this, and it is relatively simple...People that come to these last three do so of their own free will. I do not see Wiccans standing on the street corner recruiting new members. People that are meant to come to us. We don't feel the need to try and force our religion on others.

IMHO, that is what happens when the Gideons give Bibles to school children. I wouldn't want my daughter taking candy from a stranger, or anything else. In a sort of related tale, my mom got on my case when my biological daughter got into contact with me a couple of years ago, about forcing my religion on to her. I replied to her with a rather scathing reply about the Inquisition. I belonged to a recovery group, and we would close the meeting with the Lord's Prayer, until enough non Christians in the group complained. Every where I turn, Christianity is ADVERTISED. After that, we closed with a moment of silence, where in you could pray as it suited you, if at all.

I believe in my heart that it is every body's right to believe, or disbelieve in what ever they choose. All I ask is that I be granted the same. I can turn off the tv, but I'm not qualified to keep my child out of school, and don't want her subjected to the Mandatory prayers. Prayer must be felt, and believed to be real, and forcing children to pray to the God of your understanding, *generic your*, is not only unfair to the children, but it is morally wrong.

[Azred]

Prayer in schools? *sigh* We'll all have more peace by simply having no prayers of any religion in any non-religious school. There are too many people who take too many things too seriously to allow for some prayer every now and then.

Gideons handing out Bibles? [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] I have nothing against Gideons, but if they try to hand a Bible to TJ I will promply throw the Bible into the nearest trash can right in front of them. If anyone is going to oversee his religious training/instruction, those people will be myself and Belle.

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: This is an issue I've discussed with my college buddies in our e-mail debates and I thought it would make for an interesting discussion here as well. The thread title is very broad, so I will narrow it down a bit. I want to focus on two aspects of religion appearing in school and debate these issues. First, prayer in school. I'm talking primarily about "P.A. Prayer" (prayers said on behalf of the student body over the "P.A." system or on behalf of the athletes at a sporting event) rather than class-led or individual prayers - but I realize the discussion will inevitable involve ALL forms of prayer in school. Still, I would like to keep the focus on P.A. Prayers as much as possible. Second, Gideon's handing out Bibles to school children. Are these examples a breach of the Constitutional admonishment to keep church and state separate? Or do they conform to the requirements of "freedom of religion and religious practice"? Are they acceptable under certain conditions or should they not be allowed in any shape, form, or fashion? BTW, this does not necessarily have to turn into another "Circle of Strife" argument. I'm a Southern Baptist, but I was given enough evidence to actually change my view on one of these two topics by a close friend who is also an atheist. So let's keep an open mind and consider the weight of each other's arguments - and as always - argue the point rather than attacking the person! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Prayers in school:

Those PA prayers sound like a bad idea to me. That's as annoying for an atheist as it would be for you if you went to that school, and every morning they would say "God does not exist, we are all coming from apes and are going to stop existing once we die" on the intercom. It's also annoying for people of other religions, I'm pretty sure muslim don't like christian prayers, and vice versa.

If they really want to wish good luck to the students, they can simply say something like: "Good morning everyone, we wish you an happy and productive day!".

Gideon's handing out Bibles to school children:

I have no ideas who or what Gideon is, but here recently, the Raelians thought it was a good idea to go hand out papers to childrens on the school ground. If you allow people to hands out christian papers, you also give any psycho the right to hand out religious drivel to your childrens. How would you feel if your childrens came from school one day with a Satanic holy book?

[ 05-28-2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[IronDragon]

First, prayer in school. I'm talking primarily about "P.A. Prayer" (prayers said on behalf of the student body over the "P.A." system or on behalf of the athletes at a sporting event)

In June of 2000 the United States Supreme Court ruled that public school districts cannot let students lead stadium crowds in prayer before high school football games or allow a student to deliver a prayer, Christian or otherwise, over the school public address system as these activities violate the constitutional requirement on separation of church and state.

When a school administrator or teacher permits or encourages this type of activity it is in effect endorsing and promoting a particular religion.

Second, Gideon's handing out Bibles to school children.

In Alabama, officials in the DeKalb County school system blatantly disobeyed a district court ruling that forbade religious activity in school such as the broadcast of Christian prayers over the school public address system and the distribution of Gideon Bibles on school property. The courts have issued an injunction to protect minority students and compel the DeKalb County schools to abide by the law.

Are these examples a breach of the Constitutional admonishment to keep church and state separate?

Yes these are examples of violations of separation of church and state. When the school system promotes, encourages or supports public broadcast of prayer it is promoting that particular religion and disparaging, denouncing and marginalizing all other religions. It is not the exercise of a particular religion or the exercise of free speech that the courts have found against it is the promotion of one particular religion that is unconstitutional.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I made a long, detailed post last night explaining my position on these issues....only to have the IW server "go down" before I could post it. AAAAAARGH! I HATE it when that happens. Fortunately, that means you now get a more abbreviated (ie - less long-winded) summation of my viewpoint.

1) Prayer in School - I fully support the right of each individual student to pray according to their individual beliefs. That includes everything from a Christian saying Grace over their meal to a Muslim spreading out their prayer rug towards Mecca and saying their daily prayer(s) at the appointed time. I think a daily "moment of silence/meditation" is acceptable to start the school day. Those that wish to pray can and those that wish to stare out the window (or at the girl across the room ) can do that.

I was reluctantly convinced by my atheist friend that P.A. Prayer IS a violation of the Constitutional rights of each student since they are REQUIRED to attend school and could not avoid hearing any prayer that was "broadcast" over the intercom system. This does NOT offer the opportunity to "not participate" and could be classified as "involuntary religious indoctrination". So I agree that P.A. Prayer is wrong. I am less firm regarding prayers offered for the safety of ahtletes before a ball game, since this is always done before the game actually begins. Anyone not wanting to hear the prayer could avoid it by waiting until after the prayer was over before entering the stadium or gym...but that is still an imposition on them to avoid the prayer...so I'm willing to compromise on this issue. I think it is a bit "over the top" to complain about offering a prayer that no kids be injured during the game, but I understand the principle of why some people oppose it.

2) Gideons passing out Bibles - For those who don't know, Gideons are Christians that pass out pocket-sized Bibles at certain public facilities. The Bibles are an abridged version and contain only a select number of passages or books from the regular Bible. The front of the Bible has a "Table of Contents" that lists specific emotions or circumstances a person may be experiencing and gives the relevant Biblical passages to read regarding that situation.

AFA Gideons passing out Bibles in schools, I see NO Constitutional breach - because the students have a choice about taking the Bible or declining the offer. They don't HAVE to take a Bible and can just walk on by the Gideons if they choose. The Gideons are very "passive" about handing out the Bibles (in my experience, anyway). They may hold a Bible up and ask each student "May I offer you a Bible?" - but there is NO chastisement or ridicule if a child declines the offer. To be honost, though, I'm not sure if the Gideons even do that anymore. The last few times I've seen them, they had just set up a display table (complete with refreshments {yum} [img]smile.gif[/img] ) and only talked to those people that approached them first. They do NOT have one of their members holding up a Bible and "preaching" at the kids as they walk by. They simply "set up" in a well traveled area and allow those interested to approach them. They also follow all the necessary steps to obtain permission before setting up their display.

In the case IronDragon cited, the schools are violating a direct court order...so they should have denied the Gideons access to their facility. I don't agree with the court order, but the school shouldn't have violated it.

See....even a good ole' Southern Baptist can admit he isn't right ALL of the time. (MOST of the time - yes - but not all [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] ).

[wellard]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: However, I must say that religious indoctrination didn't hurt me any, or make me a worse person. Years of Sunday School didn't stop me from deciding to become an atheist.

Ditto [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Can I use this quote in the future Timber [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

Well my stance is against any religion in schools including religious schools. Religion outside of the examples Reeka set out should be taught in private time and away from the teachings of a national curriculum. As for the example of the Gideon’s that Cerek mentioned, that to me is the best way to "sell" a religion. Make yourself available in an open and non-confrontationist manner to those seeking information. But Luvian makes a damn good argument. "How would we feel if the stall was pushing extreme religious material?" so the safe way would be to ban all forms of religious material on school grounds.

This may be frustrating for some Christians, but surely their religion is strong enough to thrive beyond these safeguards.