Burning the Flag or Burning the Freedom to do so?

[Chewbacca]

I would only burn a flag under one circumstance, which is the banning of flag burning. This has nothing to do with disrespecting soldiers or disrespecting the sacred meaning many put on the flag, but I feel it is my duty to serve my nation by protesting this issue this way.

Perhaps if those angry and offended soldiers would imagine what a flag might mean to a civilian, a citizen with a greivance in an act of protest -perhaps some of those offended soldiers won't feel offended. If they can realize in certain circumstances a person can see doing flag-burning as the absolute most appropriate way to perform a patriotic duty. The gauranteed right of protest enshrined in Constitution.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Go ahead, then. Let them ban the freedom to burn the flag. Just seems to me that senators who support this kind of bill are a greater threat to the Constitution of the United States than Saddam Hussein ever was or ever could be. Talk about disrespecting the troops...

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: "I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC;

With respect, I've seen no sign of the military doing anything about defending the constitution against the government. Indeed, it actively participates in breaches of it - eg Guantanemo (which is at best bending the constitution) and these military tribunals (the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional last week I think)

It's a nice sentiment of course, but in practice it appears to be only a sentiment.

[ 07-07-2006, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Zebodog]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Perhaps if those angry and offended soldiers would imagine what a flag might mean to a civilian, a citizen with a greivance in an act of protest -perhaps some of those offended soldiers won't feel offended. If they can realize in certain circumstances a person can see doing flag-burning as the absolute most appropriate way to perform a patriotic duty. The gauranteed right of protest enshrined in Constitution.

Often times that soldier doesn't have the time to consider the meaning of an act such as that, but the civillian does.

See, when you are in the middle of a war all your thinking about is whether or not you are gonna live to see another sunrise. Taking the time to ponder the meaning behind a protest isn't going to happen, trust me.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: quote: Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: "I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC;

With respect, I've seen no sign of the military doing anything about defending the constitution against the government. Indeed, it actively participates in breaches of it - eg Guantanemo (which is at best bending the constitution) and these military tribunals (the Supreme Court ruled them unconstitutional last week I think)

It's a nice sentiment of course, but in practice it appears to be only a sentiment. [/QUOTE]Selective Reading Shamrock, don't forget the all important next sentence:

AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE.

By the nature of the oath we (current and former military) must trust that the actions of the government are based around protecting the document that we are actively trying to defend. The oath is not something to take lightly, nor is it something most soldiers I know take as "words we have to say to enlist or reenlist" those that do rarely stay in the military for long.

[John D Harris]

The purpose of the US Consitution is to establish a governement and set limits on what the Government can and can not do. The purpose is not to limit what the citizens can and can not do. That is the sole responsebilty of the laws, writen, and adopted by the Government in accordance with the authority, given to the Government to govern. (In this case the US Government, by the US Constitution.) When the authority on which the Government stands is used to limit the citizens and not the government we start down a path that flies in the face of what the US Constitution was intended to do.

Felix, I understand, as best a military brat can where you are coming from and your feelings on this matter. I would offer you a differant tact, to look at this issue, one I learned from my Father, 24 years USAF Lt.Col. retired. He had on several occasions "Fired in anger", after returning home from his last tour in a combat zone, he was stationed as a ROTC instructor at, then CWSC in Ellensburg, Wa.,'68-'71, IIRC. On more then one occasion the little pimply faced long hairs at the "Institution of higher learning" staged protests and marched on the ROTC building. He ordered the men under his command to protect the building and its contents, property of the US Government. Then He went out alone to face the protesters. He waved the campus police and security off, and alowed the little pukes to rant and rave all they wanted. Standing there the entire time in uniform smiling at them as the screamed and hurled insults at him. Finally some of the pukes couldn't stand it any more, this Military officer, "The Man", "The pawn of the Evil hate filled Military industrial complex", was doing nothin to hinder their protest, and in fact was doing everything to insure they were able to conduct their protest in a legal manner, asked my father why he was taking the actions he was? His reply was " I have dropped bombs and killed people in defense of this nation and the Constitution. That Constituion limits the Government's authority to stop your freedom of speach. I am here to see your freedom is NOT infringed, or trampled on in any way, I took an oath to do so and will do so Now! If I don't then all the men and women that fought and died defending the US Constituion and nation will have done so in vain. I will not allow thier sacrifice to be to be in vain, for any reason."(Paraphased by me) Those in ear shot turned and walked away, as they left they passed they words by Father told them to the others in the crowd, soon the protester left of their own free will. The little pukes came looking for a fight(Something I find ironic since it was a "PEACE PROTEST"), instead they ran into a man the would not be moved, one who knew what he was doing and why he was doing it. They don't understand the mind of the military, or the will. You don't have to agree with their actions, but remember as long as their actions are legal, and within the rights the US Constitution says the Government can not infringe on, no matter how offensive the actions maybe to one personally. Their rights must be defended and alowed to take place, if not then every shot "Fired in anger, life lost, or taken in defense of the US Constitution, this nation, this people, will have been in vain". Please don't let the pukes get you down, your sacrifices and those of your fellows are appreciated, and welcomed by all, even if in their foolishness they don't understand, but their actions of exercising their Consitutional rights testify to value of your sacrifices and the quality of the duty in which you have served. The US Constitution does not grant the Governement authority to limit their right act as foolish and ungrateful children. Besides you do have the right to... what was the well turned phrase used earlier...Oh yeah..."Discharge a legal fire exginquisher."

[ 07-08-2006, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: To be sure, burning the flag can certainly be a protest those who coopt the flag and use its symbology as a means to justify their own perverse ends. No country is free of the threat of being overtaken and run by scoundrels, least of all the US.

Or it can be a protest by those that are doing the coopting, upset that "their side" is not in control, so they feel they must lash out and protest to justify their perverse ends. Not every country is taken over and run by scoundrels, least of all the USA!

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by John D Harris: The purpose of the US Consitution is to establish a governement and set limits on what the Government can and can not do. The purpose is not to limit what the citizens can and can not do. That is the sole responsebilty of the laws, writen, and adopted by the Government in accordance with the authority, given to the Government to govern. (In this case the US Government, by the US Constitution.) When the authority on which the Government stands is used to limit the citizens and not the government we start down a path that flies in the face of what the US Constitution was intended to do. Felix, I understand, as best a military brat can where you are coming from and your feelings on this matter. I would offer you a differant tact, to look at this issue, one I learned from my Father, 24 years USAF Lt.Col. retired. He had on several occasions "Fired in anger", after returning home from his last tour in a combat zone, he was stationed as a ROTC instructor at, then CWSC in Ellensburg, Wa.,'68-'71, IIRC. On more then one occasion the little pimply faced long hairs at the "Institution of higher learning" staged protests and marched on the ROTC building. He ordered the men under his command to protect the building and its contents, property of the US Government. Then He went out alone to face the protesters. He waved the campus police and security off, and alowed the little pukes to rant and rave all they wanted. Standing there the entire time in uniform smiling at them as the screamed and hurled insults at him. Finally some of the pukes couldn't stand it any more, this Military officer, "The Man", "The pawn of the Evil hate filled Military industrial complex", was doing nothin to hinder their protest, and in fact was doing everything to insure they were able to conduct their protest in a legal manner, asked my father why he was taking the actions he was? His reply was " I have dropped bombs and killed people in defense of this nation and the Constitution. That Constituion limits the Government's authority to stop your freedom of speach. I am here to see your freedom is NOT infringed, or trampled on in any way, I took an oath to do so and will do so Now! If I don't then all the men and women that fought and died defending the US Constituion and nation will have done so in vain. I will not allow thier sacrifice to be to be in vain, for any reason."(Paraphased by me) Those in ear shot turned and walked away, as they left they passed they words by Father told them to the others in the crowd, soon the protester left of their own free will. The little pukes came looking for a fight(Something I find ironic since it was a "PEACE PROTEST"), instead they ran into a man the would not be moved, one who knew what he was doing and why he was doing it. They don't understand the mind of the military, or the will. You don't have to agree with their actions, but remember as long as their actions are legal, and within the rights the US Constitution says the Government can not infringe on, no matter how offensive the actions maybe to one personally. Their rights must be defended and alowed to take place, if not then every shot "Fired in anger, life lost, or taken in defense of the US Constitution, this nation, this people, will have been in vain". Please don't let the pukes get you down, your sacrifices and those of your fellows are appreciated, and welcomed by all, even if in their foolishness they don't understand, but their actions of exercising their Consitutional rights testify to value of your sacrifices and the quality of the duty in which you have served. The US Constitution does not grant the Governement authority to limit their right act as foolish and ungrateful children. Besides you do have the right to... what was the well turned phrase used earlier...Oh yeah..."Discharge a legal fire exginquisher."

Amen.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: Amen.

Agreed.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: Amen.

Agreed. [/QUOTE]So we four are in complete agreeance? I have such mixed feelings on this... I mean, if nothing else, I must get a pair of ice skates before I die. I hear Hell has large lakes.