East vs West - more fuel to the fire

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by AngelofDeath: Your DAD sounds Like a VERY Smart guy!!!

Well, he was in the military (VietNam) so what would you expect his standing to be? And I'll just pretend I didn't notice the ugly sarcasm you threw my way seeing as how I'm apparently too stupid, in your opionion, to notice. God bless you.

BTW - my DAD thinks I'm brilliant!

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The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Owner/operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force
Sublime Sister of the Illuminati - may the Light shine forever!
Mage extraordinair.
Occasional minion to Gwhanos the Fluffy

Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

[This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by AngelofDeath: Your DAD sounds Like a VERY Smart guy!!!

Why's that then, Angel? Someone who can get his mouth around the words 'those damn liberal democrats' is not, to my mind, smart per se. Most English speaking people could probably manage it.

(Ooops, DragonMage, sorry, not taking pot shots at your dad by the way! Just at a quote with nothing to back it up. Just seen your comment about sarcasm. I took that comment as totally serious (i.e. your dad being smart BECAUSE he was against the democrats) and took issue with the concept. Nothing personal!

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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-28-2001).]

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Why's that then, Angel? Someone who can get his mouth around the words 'those damn liberal democrats' is not, to my mind, smart per se. Most English speaking people could probably manage it.

Touche, my friend!

Although, my Dad IS smart! We just don't agree on everything! But at least HE doesn't insult my level of intelligence now when we clash. He used to, but he finally learned that HIS way isn't the ONLY way.

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The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Owner/operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force
Sublime Sister of the Illuminati - may the Light shine forever!
Mage extraordinair.
Occasional minion to Gwhanos the Fluffy

Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

[This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Ryanamur]

To Silver Cheetah and Kaz: Thanks for the thumbs up... I'm sure it's the only one I'll get today

It's just sad to see how common sense and reality can be clouded by judgements.




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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: To Silver Cheetah and Kaz: Thanks for the thumbs up... I'm sure it's the only one I'll get today It's just sad to see how common sense and reality can be clouded by judgements.

You come over like a really nice guy, Ryanamur (I'm not saying that *just* because you agree with me! )


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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[DragonMage]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: To Silver Cheetah and Kaz: Thanks for the thumbs up... I'm sure it's the only one I'll get today It's just sad to see how common sense and reality can be clouded by judgements.

Just to let you know, even though I didn't actually address you personally on your quotes.... There's another one for you!

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The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Owner/operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force
Sublime Sister of the Illuminati - may the Light shine forever!
Mage extraordinair.
Occasional minion to Gwhanos the Fluffy

Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

Ryanamur, if more of the "Right Wing" in America thought as clearly as you do, I wouldn't have to fight my temptation to throw rocks at them. Although I have a hard time with a lot of the positions espoused by these folks, the hardest part is their often dogmatic arguments which brook no opposing views whatsoever. I commend your open-mindedness.

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[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Ugh. That's not that clear. Oh well, someone else will probably explain it better. Got the below off the net. Gives a bit of history and clarifies it a bit. 'Among the most ill-defined phrases in English are the phrases "right wing" and "left wing", in reference to political philosophy. The origin derives from the British parliament building. If you stand in front of the British parliament building, facing the door, the House of Commons is to your left, and the House of Lords is to your right. When they built the U. S. Congress building, they put the House of Representatives, the lower house, to the left, and the Senate, the upper house, to the right. Therefore, in the 19th Century, left-wing came to mean poor, and right-wing came to mean rich. Then the phrases left-wing and right-wing came to refer to the sort of legislation or rhetoric that would be going on in that side of the building. For instance, in the left wing of the British parliament building, the House of Commons, people would be pushing to increase the percentage of the population that could vote, and other reforms. In the right wing of the parliament building, the House of Lords, people were pushing to prevent reforms, and maintain the status quo. Thus left-wing came to mean wanting change, and right-wing came to mean not wanting change.

Delightful bit of history there, SC. I didn't know that, but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for the illumination

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Memnoch: I'd be interested to hear of *honest* reactions to this article, in Britain's Guardian newspaper. Western society superior to Islam, says Berlusconi By John Hooper and Kate Connolly in Berlin Italy's Prime Minister, Mr Silvio Berlusconi, has gone out of his way to stress what every other leader backing America's "war on terrorism" is desperate to deny - that the looming conflict is, at bottom, a clash of civilisations. Three times during a lightning visit to Berlin on Wednesday, Mr Berlusconi enthusiastically proclaimed views that will appal Western leaders and confirm the worst suspicions of many Muslims. He boasted of the "supremacy" and "superiority" of Western civilisation and called on Europe to recognise its "common Christian roots". Mr Berlusconi, who has been under pressure over the handling of protests at this year's G8 summit in Genoa, also claimed a link between Islamist terrorism and the anti-globalisation movement. There was a "strange unanimity" between them, and both were enemies of Western civilisation. Standing beside German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, at a joint press conference, he declared that he and his host considered that the September11 attacks "are attacks not only on the United States but on our civilisation, of which we are proud bearers, conscious of the supremacy of our civilisation". He had earlier told Italian journalists: "We should be conscious of the superiority of our civilisation, which consists of a value system that has given people widespread prosperity in those countries that embrace it, and guarantees respect for human rights and religion." As if to rub salt in the wound, he added: "This respect certainly does not exist in the Islamic countries." Mr Berlusconi began his eventful day with a surprise breakfast with President Vladimir Putin of Russia, who is also visiting Germany. The Prime Minister emerged to tell reporters that "Europe must revive on the basis of common Christian roots". That remark will not only dismay ethnic minority leaders, but will also be deeply offensive to Albanians, Bosnians, Kosovans and other European Muslims.

I think it's a bit of a shame that there's been such a knee jerk reation to this article. Rather than dismissing this opinion totally out of hand, is it not better to look at the situation honestly, and seperate the truth from the bias?

The reality, however much it may grate on us, is that western civilisation is based on Judeo-Christian principles. To deny this is to have ones head in the sand.

However, "based on" does not mean "is". This is not a clash of religions. Western civilisations has developed many aspects that now contradict the Christian and Jewish ideas from which they were birthed.

Similarly Islamic countries are based on Islamic principles to varying degrees. We are led to believe the Taliban has taken interpretations of Islamic law in a bizarre and extreme direction.

At the root though are two cultures with vastly different values, beliefs, and importantly perceptions on how the world is and should be.

Does this make us uncomfortable to admit this?

If we replace Berscolini's "superiority" with "difference" we have a more palatable, balanced and honest appraisal without one eyed support of ones own system.

"We should be conscious of the difference of our civilisation, which consists of a value system that has given people widespread prosperity in those countries that embrace it, and guarantees respect for human rights and religion."

The Taliban and Saddam hardly champion human rights. When I was in Dubai, I saw extreme wealth alongside extreme poverty. (Hmmmm sounds like a rampant capitalist nation I know). A lot hinges on Berscolinis definition of superiority. If he means military power, wealth, medicinal advances, invention, manufacturing, literacy rate, level of education, life expectancy, diversity and quality of food, citizens access to technology and entertainment, volume of artistic creations and subsequent exploitation of them plus the attainment of space flight, deep sea exploration and breast enhancement, then he would indeed be right. In every case the west outstrips the Islamic world.

The question is how do we define superior? Are all these advances to the benefit of human existence? Have we evolved or devolved? Has the automobile/coal burning ruined the atmosphere? Yes. Has the fax/email/microwave given us more time in the day? No. The opposite. Is our quality of life superior to an Islamic spice merchant in Cairo who has the love of a spouse and children, brothers, sisters and and cousins supporting him?

An honest question needs an honest answer.

Rather than avoiding honesty, I think the point Berscolini makes about a clash of ideals/civilisation is very valid. To presume all of us hold the same values is ridiculous. To insist it is dangerous and repressive.
I believe his equation of Christianity and the west to be in error, but regarding roots of the value systems in place he has a point.

Do I think his comments are wise given the current circumstances?

No. Certainly not.

However, they present a view. They create some interesting thoughts about the situation. Let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Truth can appear disguised in lies and surrounded by bias.

Sometimes the truth is not attractive to us.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: You come over like a really nice guy, Ryanamur (I'm not saying that *just* because you agree with me! )

Some would agree and others wouldn't. I'll leave it at that


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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?