Treatment of prisoners (yep, those ones...)

[Konfuzed and Zany]

quote:

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:



I was not aware that this forum is the media........if it is, then please advice the moderators as I have gravely trounced on the rules.

If you take my comments out of context, which you have, then I definitely appear to be a very hateful, self-righteous American. Taken *in* context, however, they are my opinion, stated concisely. I *said* "I don't give a rat's ass about.........these indiviuals are *not* being mistreated." Please finish the quote if you are going to use it to throw a miniature flame, be it personally aimed or at a nation.

And I will reiterate, under the Geneva Convention--which I have read as well as operated under as a member of the United States military as well as two siblings (one at the moment on alert still) and other family members through the years--according to the terms stated in the Geneva Convention, these individuals do *not* qualitfy for prisoner of war status. Does this mean we (and that is the generic we) can beat them, starve them and otherwise make their lives a living hell? Of course not. But then again, I wasn't aware that that was what we were doing.

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True enough
But Under NO circumstances should people be treated like that
if you would read my second post (which you probably didn;t because you were replying when i posted it) No matter what the crime
If YOU take control over someones live
You have your obligations
Treat them like humans beings

[Garnet FalconDance]

quote:

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Originally posted by Melusine:



To be honest I don't think they were much of a threat to "us" (how come everybody here thinks in terms of them and us? US vs the world? I don't) - it is obvious that these terrorists target America specifically. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it isn't "our" problem as long as we're safe from danger, I just wanted to point out the above. Guess it rubs me in the wrong way when Americans point out how they protect us all - kinda like "if we hadn't been around you'd all be speaking German by now (*yawn*)", I mean, do you do it because you care or because you like to brag about it? We have a saying in Holland: Good wine needs no laurels.

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I can not speak for every American, obviously. I can only speak my opinion, my feelings.

The attack of Sept 11 was *not* an attack on Americans specifically! It was a politically engineered (and pseudo-religiously fueled) assault on a *global* set of buildings which held some of the world's major financial records/importance. Hello--the *World* Trade Center. There are records of transactions which can never be retrieved and still quite a bit of a gold reserve in the (now) crypts underneath! And may I remind you that Americans were not the only ones who were killed--this was known in advance and still the plan went on. How many folks from the Netherlands? I don't know. Maybe none. If so, then I'm glad. No one deserved to have their lives cut short in a miasma of terror knowing they were to be the weapon which caused countless more deaths.

Why was America targetted? Probably because we *are* the most visible scion of capitalism and importance. Notice I said *visible* scion.

Perhaps one of the reasons we act so bombastically about the whole affair of watch-dogging the world at large is that if all goes according to plan, the world (used generically) applauds and congratulates itself on how well *they* handled the situation. If ought goes wrong, then it's all those nasty, pompous Americans' fault!

And if we seem to play big brother and watch out for everyone else, then I ask you--if not us, then who? *I* don't like this perceived responsibility of the US to protect everybody as if they were small helpless children. I never have. But who does everyone (again, the generic everyone) run to if they need financial aid or military weapons or help with an irksome neighbor? Now maybe that *is* our fault. I don't know. But if the world community has such a problem with the concept, then they need to address it, cut the apron strings and start acting like adults.

I am *NOT* flaming anyone here.

[Nachtrafe]

quote:

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Originally posted by Konfuzed and Zany:

I think it would be best if you would be put in isolation for a while to show you You Do need the World and You need to respect the world

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You know Rikard...that's an interesting notion. It would be amusing to watch economies all over the world crumble without the US supporting them, either through consumerism or aid. And hey...the anarchy that would result without the stabalizign influence of the biggest military on the planet...that should be fun too.

(SARCASM OFF)

As for the rest of your post...Its not nationalism, its National pride. Big difference. And, as GF pointed out, you severely misquoted her and took her remarks out of context. So the whole foundation of that section is gone and therefore, the rest of your points crumble.

As for the prisoners...with the singular exception that their freedom of movement is being curtailed, they *are* living under better conditions that ever in their lives. And they are not being beaten, starved, tortured, etc. I dont know where you got this notion, but it is dead wrong.

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:


I can not speak for every American, obviously. I can only speak my opinion, my feelings.

The attack of Sept 11 was *not* an attack on Americans specifically! It was a politically engineered (and pseudo-religiously fueled) assault on a *global* set of buildings which held some of the world's major financial records/importance. Hello--the *World* Trade Center. There are records of transactions which can never be retrieved and still quite a bit of a gold reserve in the (now) crypts underneath! And may I remind you that Americans were not the only ones who were killed--this was known in advance and still the plan went on. How many folks from the Netherlands? I don't know. Maybe none. If so, then I'm glad. No one deserved to have their lives cut short in a miasma of terror knowing they were to be the weapon which caused countless more deaths.

Why was America targetted? Probably because we *are* the most visible scion of capitalism and importance. Notice I said *visible* scion.

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I wasn't talking about the specific incident, I KNOW that it affects the world, not just the US, and I know there were all kinds of nationalities in the WTC. Even if there weren't, contrary to some people I know here, *I* don't distinguish between the needless death of an American or a Hollander (or any other nationality). Both are equally horrible in my eyes.
But you misunderstood my point - what I was saying is that the terrorist fanatics seem to focus completely on the USA. Sometimes they call it the Western World but usually they see America as the root of all evil, not Europe or something.I am not saying they're right, I'm not saying they're justified (I can't believe I even have to point that out but there you go) I'm just saying they seem to focus on America, so when you talk about protecting us, I don't think you are correct. I think there's a higher risk of attacks against America than attacks against other countries. Of course, even an attack against the US will directly affect Europe but that's a different matter.

quote:

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Perhaps one of the reasons we act so bombastically about the whole affair of watch-dogging the world at large is that if all goes according to plan, the world (used generically) applauds and congratulates itself on how well *they* handled the situation. If ought goes wrong, then it's all those nasty, pompous Americans' fault!

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Speak for yourself. I have never implied or even thought that.

[Garnet FalconDance]

quote:

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Originally posted by Konfuzed and Zany:


This is Basic Human Rights
We ALL deserve this
No Matter what someone did
You cannot stop treating them like human beings
Human beings do not get born Evil
They get turned evil
By people who don't care about them
By Hunger and Hatred
Think about it before you judge
Always Look to yourself first
to try and find the answers

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Please understand, I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate for a moment........

*Where* exactly does it say that nutrition, shelter and spiritual care are basic human *RIGHTS*?

Ok, advocate button off. Now, I agree with you that these are the most basic of care we should provide a fellow human. But we *are* providing them. The are not being treated as subhuman or animals. I may or may not agree with interrogation technics (which we really do not know how these are being implemented), but there is a vast difference between how these prisoners are being treated and the manner in which other prisoners of war (world citizens, all) in other countries have been historically treated. I will retract my support if we should find that electrical shock, 'water torture' or other heinous tortures are shown to be the interrogation technics used!

(button partially on)

Are you implying that if we show or had shown these individuals love and undying care, they never would have turned into zealous killers? Hmm. Interesting theory and with merit, but unrealistic.

And I'm not judging them--I judge their actions. I teach my children that *very* few people are evil--it is rather their *actions* which are evil. There *is* a difference.

[Melusine]

Rikard, I think you should agree that you haven't visited the camps yourself, and so far you haven't responded to any of the claims that the prisoners are fed and sheltered. Do you simply refuse to believe that they are? It's fine to argue like you do, but you must take all facts into account. Arguing about how people should be treated well at all times, being fed and warmed, is all well, but it isn't very revelant to the discussion if the people we're talking about ARE being fed and kept warm.

[Garnet FalconDance]

quote:

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Originally posted by Melusine:


Speak for yourself. I have never implied or even thought that.

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That is why I have begun using the *generic* 'you', etc (and tagged it as such). This way perhaps some misunderstanding may be avoided.

[WOLFGIR]

quote:

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Originally posted by Barry the Sprout:
[QB]
Basically what I am trying to say is that the Geneva convention applies here, or it was an illegal occupation by the coalition against terrorism.
QB]

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Well the Geneva convention is actually only guarding thoose that follows it. And yes that is actually as it says, I had to read it as a medic in the armed forces. You have an obligation to treat all wounded the same, but if the opponents are not following the geneva convention, you can more or less let them lie to die..

The Taliban regim might be one thing, I don´t know if they have signed or follow the Geneva convention or not.

For the Al-Quaida terrorists. Nope, if you attack civil targets you have broken the Geneva rules and hence, you are not protected by it. I don´t know if USA has agreed or not to the UN humaniatarian projects and rules or not, but quite frankly, they found a terrorist accused terrorist with swedish papers on him, if he is guilty, I don´t mind if they convert him to fertilizing or what ever. I don´t want him back. I have very little sympathy for terrorist, but that is of course only my personal views. The one about Geneva is not, it is as Geneva constitution says, but UN might have other rules and so on..

[Konfuzed and Zany]

I never said they WERE mistreated
I just said they shouldn't be
This in reaction to people who said they wouldn;t care if they were mistreated

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Konfuzed and Zany:
I never said they WERE mistreated
I just said they shouldn't be
This in reaction to people who said they wouldn;t care if they were mistreated

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OK thanks for making that clear, and I agree with you.
Just try to make sure everybody knows what you are talking about in the future then, because as you see people (including me) misread your posts.