09-08-2008, 11:40 AM | #141 |
Jack Burton
Join Date: May 16, 2003
Location: Dartmouth, NS Canada
Age: 58
Posts: 5,634
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Alrighty then,
I think we've pretty much beat the crap out of it. Shall we stick a fork in it?
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09-08-2008, 11:48 AM | #142 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
Certainly when I sing, I have faith I am going to hit the note before I hit it. And so I do. When I teach singing, I time and again, see students do what they have never done before, because the teacher in front of them sings something they need to replicate, which they then do so without time to doubt. So they do it. Confidence is 80% of singing. Lots of little tries and errors so you understand your parametres, and with some logic, have faith that you can sing certain notes. But tell me this. If you were at an airport, and 4 planes crashed prior to your flight, how much faith in your aircraft would you have? Faith is proceeding with something you do not know for certain. Some things are easy and almost automatic to have faith in. Others take much more faith. But a strong faith in God is a logical thing. My faith in any case, is based on observation and analysis of cause and effect, along with self experimentation. I believe God "speaks" to me (to use a simplistic description) encouraging me to what is beneficial to me, my wife or my friends. I have repeatedly tested this over the years, ignored it to my detriment, followed it when it seems crazy, and found that my life goes better when I listen and do what he says, and much worse when I ignore it. So after an accumulation of experiences like this, my faith and trust in God builds. I believe he loves me. I believe he answers prayer. I believe he is with me in good times, bad times and in between. I can see, looking at what has happened in my life with longer perspective, that many of the "bad" things were actually good. That there is a certain sense of direction to events I had no understanding of. My life thus becomes a conversation. I try and thank him for each moment, with it's colours, sounds, feelings, thoughts, sensations. If, as an artist, all he created was the room I'm in now, it's brilliant, and I'm glad to be alive to experience that art! Last edited by Yorick; 09-08-2008 at 11:52 AM. |
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09-08-2008, 11:56 AM | #143 | |||
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
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Faith is constantly being revised with new understanding. Just as science is. Faith grows man. Quote:
Quote:
Every human is imperfect: gay, straight, married with 7 kids, divorced and remarried 13 times, a rapist, a virgin etc etc etc The point is the old testament should give us God's intent for human development. Obviously if humans are to reproduce, man and woman are intended to be having sex. If genetic diseases are to be avoided, incest and affairs resulting in half-siblings everywhere, are to be prohibited. But there are other laws, about: * not eating shellfish (as they eat ocean poo) * not eating pork (which goes rotten quickly) * using a shovel to bury your poo (avoid flies) * keeping mothers and newborn kids in isolation for a month after birth (to prevent disease and death) * having a day off each week * having a year of jubliee every 50 years to remove debt and start from zero (could we have this one this year please? remove third world debt anyone??) But the new testament shows us Jesus' love, atoning death and how faith in him covers our deviance from God's intent. If anything, the law of the old tesament presents us with an unreachable bar we cannot jump across, while the new testament shows Jesus jumping over the bar for us. Last edited by Yorick; 09-08-2008 at 12:38 PM. |
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09-08-2008, 11:59 AM | #144 | ||
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Micro-evolution, the way humans have bred dogs and horses, or the way Humans vary from person to person, family to family or so-called "race" to "race" is not the same thing as mutation into new species. "Black" people are not a different species of human! lol
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But what we're talking about is what we KNOW about Science. We're looking at the same data, but arriving at different conclusions. I'm not rejecting the science, just the theory about the science. Quote:
All of those things - morality, fall of man etc - can still exist in an evolutionary worldview by taking Genesis symbolically. The question of how the earth formed something we're in the process of discovering, but all we're doing is looking at the effects. None of us were there to witness it, so degrees of speculation, faith in those speculations and hypothesis are always going to exist. We create THEORIES about what we observe. Last edited by Yorick; 09-08-2008 at 12:18 PM. |
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09-08-2008, 12:12 PM | #145 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
However, that's an aside. Let's look at the crusades. #1 'Christendom' lost. They got their butts kicked. If anyone has a right to be bitter, it's Christendom. It was an unmitigated disaster on so many levels. #2 I would again say that FEAR and GREED were the primary causes of the crusades, and that religion was used to motivate both poor peasants in France, and poor nomads in the middle east to kill each other. #3 If the crusades was really about Christianity vs Islam, then why did the 4th crusaders sack Constantinople, the capital of Orthodox christianity, and an indisputably 'Christian City' (whether a Christian city can actually exist on earth at all is another discussion) The 4th crusade didn't even make it to "the holy land". War is not caused by religion, but by the base human experiences of fear, greed, hate, revenge, etc etc. Though one could also say LOVE may propel someone to defend a family, mixed in with FEAR of their being hurt. |
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09-08-2008, 12:26 PM | #146 | |
Vampire
Join Date: January 29, 2003
Location: Sweden
Age: 43
Posts: 3,888
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
Evolution -> no Garden of Eden -> no Fall of Man/Original sin -> no point in Jesus death -> no point of life. It usually isn't described as openly as the above but the arguments are sometimes there if you puzzle it together.
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09-08-2008, 12:37 PM | #147 | |
Silver Dragon
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
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The only time faith adapts is in the face of overwhelming evidence where it would be ridiculous not to adapt. If you're confident your god-of-the-gaps exists, then fine, but for some we see a pattern emerging. (ie. as things explained by science goes up, things explained by religion goes down) |
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09-08-2008, 12:39 PM | #148 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
Evolutionism is not atheism. |
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09-08-2008, 12:44 PM | #149 | |||
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
Quote:
Here's a quick review: Quote:
Last edited by Yorick; 09-08-2008 at 12:49 PM. |
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09-08-2008, 12:59 PM | #150 | |
Registered Member
Iron Throne Cult
Join Date: August 27, 2004
Location: North Carolina
Age: 61
Posts: 4,888
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Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?
Quote:
My personal faith has adapted dramatically over time as my understanding of the holy texts increased. Just as scientists change their opinions with new evidence or evidence presented in a clearer manner. A good example of adaptable faith is Jim Bakker. I saw an interview he gave after being released from prison and have to admit I was very impressed. When asked about the lifestyle he and Tammy Faye led before prison, Jim answered that it was HIS fault. HE had taken one verse of the Bible (where God promises to reward those faithful to Him) and used it to convince himself he deserved all the wealth and luxury he was enjoying. Once God took it away and brought him down from his worldly heights, Bakker said he realized how wrong he had been. It wasn't the Bible that failed, it was Jim Bakker. The same is true for the verse that God will grant the desires of your heart if you believe in Him. That doesn't mean God is going to give me the Powerball number this week (though it sure wouldn't hurt my feelings if He did ). It means that, as a Christian grows in fellowship with God through the Holy Spirit and understanding of God's Word, our desires more closely resemble God's desire for our lives. Now sometimes, it does lead to financial success and security, but not always.
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