When do you believe human life starts? - Page 3

Leonis · 03-03-2002, 10:46 AM

I believe that life, and the soul begin at the instant of conception.
Every woman I've spoken to who's misscaried has said that it is like losing a born child. The sense of loss and pain and grief is absolute which leads me to believe there is more than a physical connection between the mother and the foetus.
I don't pressume that every woman in that situation has felt this way, but the ones I know all have.
I can't begin to imagine how hard it must be to go through that...

Evil Al · 03-03-2002, 11:14 AM

I believe that life begins at the moment of conception. Thus I believe that abortion is a form of murder. Those that remember a past thread of mine (Alcohol and Drugs almost ruined my life) may remember I paid for an abortion. So you may see that statement as hypocrisy. I feel a massive sense of guilt about agreeing to pay for her to abort our child. Who knows what that baby could have gone on to do? Thinking back on it I should have faced up to my responsibility, with or without the mothers help. Unfortunately I can't turn back the hands of time.

Yorick · 03-03-2002, 05:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Evil Al:
I believe that life begins at the moment of conception. Thus I believe that abortion is a form of murder. Those that remember a past thread of mine (Alcohol and Drugs almost ruined my life) may remember I paid for an abortion. So you may see that statement as hypocrisy. I feel a massive sense of guilt about agreeing to pay for her to abort our child. Who knows what that baby could have gone on to do? Thinking back on it I should have faced up to my responsibility, with or without the mothers help. Unfortunately I can't turn back the hands of time.

No you can't turn back the hands of time, but you can learn and grow from an experience, and then, by imparting that hard won knowledge, give others the chance to see the consequences of a decision.

I am truly sorry you carry this guilt, and hope you come to a point where you release it and accept your imperfections as part of your beauty. Positives in our negatives if you will.

I'm glad you had the opportunity to express your regret, your experience. For that may indeed help another human in time.

Thankyou Al. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yorick · 03-03-2002, 05:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Leonis:
I believe that life, and the soul begin at the instant of conception.
Every woman I've spoken to who's misscaried has said that it is like losing a born child. The sense of loss and pain and grief is absolute which leads me to believe there is more than a physical connection between the mother and the foetus.
I don't pressume that every woman in that situation has felt this way, but the ones I know all have.
I can't begin to imagine how hard it must be to go through that...

Well said Del. Very interesting.

Yorick · 03-03-2002, 05:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Aelia Jusa:
When the sperm fertilises the egg, the organism created is alive, in simple terms. However I think there is more to this question - specifically human life seems more complicated than this.

So the foetus is cells, which are unique because they can differentiate into any kind of cells in the body - liver, heart, brain etc. I think when the brain begins to develop is important - we as humans appear to put a great emphasis on our brains as differentiating us from other living organisms. So especially when the cerebrum is developing, which is really where the main points of difference are in our brain compared to other species, I think is crucial for human life, as unique from just life.

Of course then with this theory I would have to say that babies born braindead or with parts of their brain missing are essentially not human, or less human, but then maybe they aren't, insomuch as they can't function in the ways they we define as human. Flaw in the theory maybe. Just making it up as I go along . Though some people with very large parts of their brain, or at least their cerebrum, missing, have managed to function very well because of the plasticity of the brain. Maybe the potential for human-like functioning is what makes human life essentially human.

Interesting points. Is the only human a perfect human? Any of the defenitions of humanity can be broken.

Bi-podal? What if a human is born without legs?
Capable of speech? What of a mute or someone born with brain damage to the speech areas?

And so on.

Isn't it the potential that mostly defines us? How we would be if all things were normal.?

On a tangent, I love extremists. Mountain climbers and the like who expand the definition of humanity.

You can truly say, "A human can climb a very high flat walled rock face with bare hands and softshoed feet."

Incredible.

Aelia Jusa · 03-03-2002, 05:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Interesting points. Is the only human a perfect human? Any of the defenitions of humanity can be broken.

Bi-podal? What if a human is born without legs?
Capable of speech? What of a mute or someone born with brain damage to the speech areas?

And so on.

Isn't it the potential that mostly defines us? How we would be if all things were normal.?

Yeah, maybe potential is the crucial part. I don't know. I just think brain functioning, ability to reason, act logically, think etc is something that we humans put a great value on, and use to differentiate ourselves from other species. A lot of people think that we should eat meat because cows, sheep etc are too dumb, therefore they deserve only for us to use them as food. So it must be important to be classed as a human, as opposed to just a life form, to have these mental abilities. No legs, being mute etc, these don't detract from our ability, or potential ability to think.

I don't really know. I don't lay any claim that this is the case, your question just made me think perhaps there was something more to human life than just a few cells connecting and dividing [img]smile.gif[/img]

Gabriel · 03-03-2002, 09:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Interesting point. What about the fact that the child feeds off the mother for months after birth though? Is a human defined merely by how they feed?

Ah, they are indeed different forms of feeding, breast feeding is using a secration of another being as food while during pregancy the sybiot asborbs the nutrants from the hosts blood stream.
And no a human is genreally defined by being an indepent human lifeform not how they feed but the fact that a embryo is fed by another being, means it is not indepented and therefore not alive.

Larry_OHF · 03-03-2002, 10:13 PM

So, you are saying a dying man on life support in the hospital has already died, and therefore no reason to keep him there?

My cousin was on life support, and told me later, after he was made well, that he had dreamed while he was in that predictament.

The same is for an unborn baby. In fact, I beleive I have read reearch reports that prove that unborn babies have dreams. They did a brain scan and watched the charts and cpmared them to a person's dream state. Also, in REM sleep, our eyes dart back and forth. When the eyes of a baby are developed befoer birth, they have the same REM sleep.

Durwyn · 03-03-2002, 10:19 PM

To say when life begins is a very hard question. Again depending a lot on what religion you are and if you are religious at all. As a Christian I will definitely go with what Larry has posted. I think life its way too complicated to say when it starts. Life is endless, there are stocks of energy floating in space, things that we have not discovered yet, souls, you thins like that all controled by God and his divine powers.

*\Conan/* · 03-03-2002, 10:38 PM

I believe life starts when it is given to you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: *\Conan/* ]

03-03-2002, 10:46 AM	#21
Leonis Symbol of Cyric Join Date: March 6, 2001 Location: Somewhere on Earth - it changes often Posts: 1,292	I believe that life, and the soul begin at the instant of conception. Every woman I've spoken to who's misscaried has said that it is like losing a born child. The sense of loss and pain and grief is absolute which leads me to believe there is more than a physical connection between the mother and the foetus. I don't pressume that every woman in that situation has felt this way, but the ones I know all have. I can't begin to imagine how hard it must be to go through that... __________________ Better run through the jungle! Grrr...

03-03-2002, 11:14 AM	#22
Evil Al Drow Warrior Join Date: October 5, 2001 Location: Aberdeen, United Kingdom Age: 38 Posts: 292	I believe that life begins at the moment of conception. Thus I believe that abortion is a form of murder. Those that remember a past thread of mine (Alcohol and Drugs almost ruined my life) may remember I paid for an abortion. So you may see that statement as hypocrisy. I feel a massive sense of guilt about agreeing to pay for her to abort our child. Who knows what that baby could have gone on to do? Thinking back on it I should have faced up to my responsibility, with or without the mothers help. Unfortunately I can't turn back the hands of time. __________________ I\'m not bigheaded but go here and tell me just how sexy i am [url]\"http://www.faceparty.com/al_the_drunkard\" target=\"_blank\">www.faceparty.com/al_the_drunkard</a><br /><br />War in iraq? Not in my name!<br /><br />Disarm America.

03-03-2002, 05:00 PM	#23
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Evil Al: I believe that life begins at the moment of conception. Thus I believe that abortion is a form of murder. Those that remember a past thread of mine (Alcohol and Drugs almost ruined my life) may remember I paid for an abortion. So you may see that statement as hypocrisy. I feel a massive sense of guilt about agreeing to pay for her to abort our child. Who knows what that baby could have gone on to do? Thinking back on it I should have faced up to my responsibility, with or without the mothers help. Unfortunately I can't turn back the hands of time. No you can't turn back the hands of time, but you can learn and grow from an experience, and then, by imparting that hard won knowledge, give others the chance to see the consequences of a decision. I am truly sorry you carry this guilt, and hope you come to a point where you release it and accept your imperfections as part of your beauty. Positives in our negatives if you will. I'm glad you had the opportunity to express your regret, your experience. For that may indeed help another human in time. Thankyou Al. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

03-03-2002, 05:08 PM	#24
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Leonis: I believe that life, and the soul begin at the instant of conception. Every woman I've spoken to who's misscaried has said that it is like losing a born child. The sense of loss and pain and grief is absolute which leads me to believe there is more than a physical connection between the mother and the foetus. I don't pressume that every woman in that situation has felt this way, but the ones I know all have. I can't begin to imagine how hard it must be to go through that... Well said Del. Very interesting. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

03-03-2002, 05:17 PM	#25
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: When the sperm fertilises the egg, the organism created is alive, in simple terms. However I think there is more to this question - specifically human life seems more complicated than this. So the foetus is cells, which are unique because they can differentiate into any kind of cells in the body - liver, heart, brain etc. I think when the brain begins to develop is important - we as humans appear to put a great emphasis on our brains as differentiating us from other living organisms. So especially when the cerebrum is developing, which is really where the main points of difference are in our brain compared to other species, I think is crucial for human life, as unique from just life. Of course then with this theory I would have to say that babies born braindead or with parts of their brain missing are essentially not human, or less human, but then maybe they aren't, insomuch as they can't function in the ways they we define as human. Flaw in the theory maybe. Just making it up as I go along . Though some people with very large parts of their brain, or at least their cerebrum, missing, have managed to function very well because of the plasticity of the brain. Maybe the potential for human-like functioning is what makes human life essentially human. Interesting points. Is the only human a perfect human? Any of the defenitions of humanity can be broken. Bi-podal? What if a human is born without legs? Capable of speech? What of a mute or someone born with brain damage to the speech areas? And so on. Isn't it the potential that mostly defines us? How we would be if all things were normal.? On a tangent, I love extremists. Mountain climbers and the like who expand the definition of humanity. You can truly say, "A human can climb a very high flat walled rock face with bare hands and softshoed feet." Incredible. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

03-03-2002, 05:45 PM	#26
Aelia Jusa Iron Throne Cult Join Date: August 23, 2001 Location: Brisbane, Australia Age: 42 Posts: 4,867	quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Interesting points. Is the only human a perfect human? Any of the defenitions of humanity can be broken. Bi-podal? What if a human is born without legs? Capable of speech? What of a mute or someone born with brain damage to the speech areas? And so on. Isn't it the potential that mostly defines us? How we would be if all things were normal.? Yeah, maybe potential is the crucial part. I don't know. I just think brain functioning, ability to reason, act logically, think etc is something that we humans put a great value on, and use to differentiate ourselves from other species. A lot of people think that we should eat meat because cows, sheep etc are too dumb, therefore they deserve only for us to use them as food. So it must be important to be classed as a human, as opposed to just a life form, to have these mental abilities. No legs, being mute etc, these don't detract from our ability, or potential ability to think. I don't really know. I don't lay any claim that this is the case, your question just made me think perhaps there was something more to human life than just a few cells connecting and dividing [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________

03-03-2002, 09:13 PM	#27
Gabriel Emerald Dragon Join Date: March 4, 2001 Location: England Age: 41 Posts: 920	quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Interesting point. What about the fact that the child feeds off the mother for months after birth though? Is a human defined merely by how they feed? Ah, they are indeed different forms of feeding, breast feeding is using a secration of another being as food while during pregancy the sybiot asborbs the nutrants from the hosts blood stream. And no a human is genreally defined by being an indepent human lifeform not how they feed but the fact that a embryo is fed by another being, means it is not indepented and therefore not alive.

03-03-2002, 10:13 PM	#28
Larry_OHF Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Midlands, South Carolina Age: 48 Posts: 14,759	So, you are saying a dying man on life support in the hospital has already died, and therefore no reason to keep him there? My cousin was on life support, and told me later, after he was made well, that he had dreamed while he was in that predictament. The same is for an unborn baby. In fact, I beleive I have read reearch reports that prove that unborn babies have dreams. They did a brain scan and watched the charts and cpmared them to a person's dream state. Also, in REM sleep, our eyes dart back and forth. When the eyes of a baby are developed befoer birth, they have the same REM sleep. __________________

03-03-2002, 10:19 PM	#29
Durwyn Elminster Join Date: January 4, 2002 Location: New York Posts: 415	To say when life begins is a very hard question. Again depending a lot on what religion you are and if you are religious at all. As a Christian I will definitely go with what Larry has posted. I think life its way too complicated to say when it starts. Life is endless, there are stocks of energy floating in space, things that we have not discovered yet, souls, you thins like that all controled by God and his divine powers. __________________ <b>-Durwyn Foehammer</b><p><i>\"Don\'t you go a-meddling with old stone or cold wights or prying in their houses, unless you be strong folk with hearts that never faulter.\"</i> - J.R.R. Tolkien

03-03-2002, 10:38 PM	#30
\Conan/ Red Dragon Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Virginia, USA Age: 62 Posts: 1,512	I believe life starts when it is given to you. [img]smile.gif[/img] [ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: \Conan/ ] __________________ \\Conan/
$\Conan/ is offline$

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