Choices killing me, Mae'Var Guild Quest

[Nightcloak]

*SPOILERS*

(Note* I try to play by a roleplaying perspective and am currently playing Neutral Good)

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Ok, so I started a new game with a Swashbuckler and pretty much got on my way as usual. Now, I enlisted at Renal Bloodscalp to ease over Yoshimo's problems with the guild. - Alright so, I stole the amulet for the neccessary good, and then came the rough part. Edwin's first quest is to eliminate a Cowled Wizard. Basically this is murder. Now I understand I am trying to find out where the Cowled Wizards took Imoen, but I don't have any reason to suspect them of the evil sort to slay. So I accepted the quest hoping there would be another route around it, (I.E. not killing the Wizard, possibly working something out). But I was practically forced to kill him when I intruded on him in his home. I honestly don't want to commit such an act. But alas, my game has auto-saved. . . should I restart the game? Was this truly an evil action, this isn't something I wanted to do, anyway to restart the chapter? Now I have some self absorbed red wizard who keeps mumbling to himself in my party... Not too mention this act dropped me down to True Neutral.

[ 11-15-2004, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Nightcloak ]

[Armen]

Originally posted by Nightcloak: . . . this act dropped me down to True Neutral.

did it? i've never seen or heard of that before . . ?

the wizard in question turns hostile as soon as you wander in doesn't he - not many good people do that - and he's got mephits - mephits are bad - "never trust a wizard with mephits" i always say

in general though - save early, save often in this game (if nothing else you never know if some random buglet is going to boot you back to the desktop robbing you of an hour's careful sneaking around)

[Nightcloak]

should I use the all mighty shadow keeper ^_^ ? - and yeah it did, I think because I said i'll leave, but then casted miscast magic on him... don't know if that makes a difference however. I needed to because in my previous confrontations with him... hes impossible to hit/kill. So I figured i'll have the first initiative, even though he did threaten me before I did.

BTW, I have Virtue Mod installed.

[ 11-15-2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Nightcloak ]

[SixOfSpades]

Even though I believe Rayic Gethras's alignment is Lawful Evil, it is still considered an Evil act to kill him because:

• You do it at Edwin's behest (even if you didn't meet him in BG1 and therefore know for a fact that he's Evil, you still know he's a Red Wizard of Thay who's working for the Shadow Thieves)
• Edwin simply wants Gethras rubbed out, he doesn't even tell you about any crime Gethras may have committed
• You break into the home of a (currently) peaceful and law-abiding citizen
• You almost certainly have to kill said citizen's servants and pets
• You threaten the life of said citizen in his home
• Gethras gives you fair warning before he turns Hostile

In short, you just committed murder for no good reason. If you were to truly roleplay Neutral Good, you would refuse to kill Gethras--thus screwing yourself out of the rest of the quest.

If you're thinking that the game treats Thieves unfairly, yep, you're absolutely right. Roleplaying Good Thieves can't get the guild, and Evil Thieves can't work for Bodhi, and PCs who aren't Thieves are stuck with the old "Only two decent Thieves in the game, one of whom dies halfway through, and neither of whom are Evil" problem.

I suggest you download the Quest Pack, also at Pocket Plane Mods. The most recent version (I'm told) includes the Betray Edwin component (which I suggested, may I humbly add), which makes this particular part of the game easier on someone of your alignment.

[Nightcloak]

. . . ::sigh:: restarting yet again [img]smile.gif[/img] I'll let you guys know when I actually get to chapter 4 out of the whole like year i've had the game, and few months ive decided to finally play it.

**Edit: Each time has always been to some mod ive just found out about, hence above, or some fixpack. Woo hoo, oh well this game is a classic, and Irenicus Dungeon is honestly really facinating. I looooooooove the voice acting. Especially when you reach the surface.

"You BORE me mageling."

[ 11-15-2004, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Nightcloak ]

[Malthaussen]

I am a bit more flexible about killing Gethras, although I too incline to the NG alignment. Agreed, the party "breaks in" to his house, but then there is no option to ring the bell like a civilized human being for ANY of the buildings. As soon as I enter, I am attacked; as soon as I talk to the mage, he attacks if I don't leave instantly, regardless of whether I have threatened him or not. I can argue that it is self-defense to kill him, although I'd MUCH rather kill Edwin. He's undoubtedly my least favorite character (and the competition is tight!), indeed, the only reason to use him is the hilarity once he becomes Edwina (a condition in which I prefer to leave him).

-- Mal

[Cerek]

The fact that Gethras turns hostile if you don't leave immediately does not mean Gethras is evil.

Mages are generally considered a temperamental lot under the best of conditions and most mages are very protective of their privacy. They get upset on general principle when adventurers just wander into their private dwellings unbidden.

Of course, the fact that the Cowled Wizards obviously captured and imprisoned Imoen without any giving any consideration to her side of the story indicates they are corrupt and/or greedy - if not necessarily outright evil.

If you're truly role-playing a thief, then your character doesn't have a great deal of respect for authority figures to begin with. Robin Hood was a hero - but he was STILL a thief. He DID steal money from people. Of course, the Neutral Good thief justifies their actions (as Robin Hood did) by recognizing they are fighting for the common (wo)man against corrupt authority figures - whom commoners are powerless against.

Imoen was obviously powerless to defend herself or even adequately state her case before the wizards arbitrarily shipped her off to prison.

Unless you are playing LAWFUL Good, then your character automatically questions the motives of at least SOME authorities and/or the rules and regulations of different cities.

So you can always make a case for attacking the Cowled Wizards.

I've taken several different paths regarding them in my different games.

My first game, I played a CN Wizard Slayer. He agreed to pay the 5,000gp just so the spellcasters in HIS party could cast their spells..but if I had roleplayed him the way I should have - then he would want to kill the Cowled Wizards just for being Cowled Wizards. I had played him through BG1 also and when he met Edwin a second time, he DID kill him AGAIN. ;0

I have a game with an assassin that is on hold right now. He decided he wasn't going to pay the fine for ANY reason....mainly because he loves money too much to pay 5,000 for the privilege of doing something others are already doing. Beside, he and Yoshi were able to set up several traps and arrange a nice "ambush" for the Cowled Wizards when they showed up to attack the party. They would set their traps, the party formed a big circle, then Minsc got in the middle of the circle and Edwin cast "Haste" on him. The Wizards showed up and got blasted by the traps, arrows, and a hasted beserker. The fights were short and bloody.

I am also currenlty playing a Skald. He didn't really like having to pay 5,000gp who also happens to be NG. He didn't like paying the fine, but this is a solo character and he didn't feel like taking on ALL the wizards by himself. He has not done the Maevar Guild quest yet, so I haven't decided what he will do about Gethras.

Because of what the Cowled Wizards do to Imoen, I feel that any good character can make a case for taking going after them as well as rescuing Imoen. The only real conflict I see would be with a Lawful Good alignment..since they believe the Law is Supreme over all - even it isn't exactly just. For instance, a LG character should NEVER rescue Viconia (IMHO). They come upon a drow cleric (a race known to be evil) that has been captured and has a litany of charges against her (all legit as far as the PC knows). Since it is not his/her place to question the "righteousness" of the city's laws, they would be breaking their own code of upholding the law if they intervened in what amounts to a "legal execution" according to the laws of the city.

Of course, Jaheira and even Minsc DO both speak out against the action being taken against Viconia, so the LG character MIGHT take those arguments into consideration. Still, a true, roleplayed LG would most likely have to let justice against Viconia take it's course.

Again, though, that is just MY opinion. I welcome any arguments to counter it.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

I don't know... A LN character might believe the Law is supreme over all, but LG characters believe that just laws are best... But each LG character draws the line in a different place. When coming upon Viconia, they must decide if they want to support Law or Good in this case.

For the LG character, it's easy. They free Viconia. A mob arbitrarily executing a drow is neither lawful nor good.

[Riftmaker]

I had a discussion about the whole Viconia thing, and we came to this conclusion...

You know who Viconia is (or at least, should) given your adventures in Baldur's Gate. While it is entirely possible that you never ran into her once, that would mean you didn't explore all of the areas, what kind of adventurer would you be if you didn't do that?

So, because you ran into her, you know she isn't a priestess of Lloth, therefore, she isn't entirely evil. You also know that she suffers from stereotyping.

So to counter Cerek's argument...

A) You know who Viconia is when you see her, and you know she isn't entirely evil.

B) You know the charges against her are more than likely false, because of the stereotyping.

C) How are is the PC to know it is a legal execution, and not a mob?

D) There is no evidence of any legal authorities around presiding over this 'execution'.

E) As far as the PC can tell, the mob is going to burn an aquaintance for no good reason.

While a LG PC would probably (IMHO ) rescue Viconia, they would have a hard time justifying keeping her in the party (being a Priestess of Shar and all) without an alignment change.

[Cerek]

Originally posted by Riftmaker: I had a discussion about the whole Viconia thing, and we came to this conclusion... You know who Viconia is (or at least, should) given your adventures in Baldur's Gate. While it is entirely possible that you never ran into her once, that would mean you didn't explore all of the areas, what kind of adventurer would you be if you didn't do that? So, because you ran into her, you know she isn't a priestess of Lloth, therefore, she isn't entirely evil. You also know that she suffers from stereotyping. So to counter Cerek's argument... A) You know who Viconia is when you see her, and you know she isn't entirely evil. B) You know the charges against her are more than likely false, because of the stereotyping. C) How are is the PC to know it is a legal execution, and not a mob? D) There is no evidence of any legal authorities around presiding over this 'execution'. E) As far as the PC can tell, the mob is going to burn an aquaintance for no good reason. While a LG PC would probably (IMHO ) rescue Viconia, they would have a hard time justifying keeping her in the party (being a Priestess of Shar and all) without an alignment change.

Those are good counterpoints, Riftmaker, but some of your assumptions and conclusions are not accurate. First of all, just because you meet Viconia in BG1 doesn't mean you know she is not evil. My PC was a CN fighter (cause they didn't have all the BG2 classes and kits yet), but he refused to allow Viconia to join the party because of her race. So he never knew she was a Priestess of Shar. Even if she claims to be, she is a drow and could very well be lying about that. So here are my counterpoints to your counterpoints.

A) The PC may (or may not) recognize Viconia on sight. Remember, Irenicus messed with the PC's head in his dungeon and the PC has trouble remembering Jaheira, Minsc and even Imoen at first. If the PC didn't allow Vicionia in the party in BG1, (s)he cannot know for certain that she is not evil.

B) Pure assumption and opinion. There is no way (from the info in the game) for the PC to know such a thing.

C) How is the PC to know the execution isn't legal. (S)he is not from Amn and has never traveled very far outside of Candlekeep. There is no way for the PC to know the laws of Amn regarding public execution.

D) The cleric citing the charges against her may well be a "legal authority". After all, the Cowled Wizards are "legal authorities" over magic. Most female drow are clerics, so it stands to reason that the charges against - and punishment for those charges - might well be carried out by a representative of a local temple.

E) The assumption that Viconia is a former acquaintance is baseless. There is no evidence that the mob is going to actually participate in the execution, they are encouraging the priest to carry out the sentence. And there might well be a "good reason" for the charges and the sentence brought against her. After all, the execution is to take place right outside the prison with Amnish guards looking on. There is NO question that the guards present are "legal authorities". Since they voice no objection to the execution...indeed, they seem to be there to ensure the execution occurs...it is logical to assume that the execution IS legal - at least according to the laws of Amn. It is also reasonable to assume that the priest does have the authority to carry out the sentence against Viconia since the guards seem to be supporting his actions rather than opposing them.

As I stated before, the fact that Jaheira - and especially Minsc - do speak out against the execution IS a legit reason for the PC to intervene. Jaheira would have an inbred hatred for drow, and Minsc has child's "black and white" perspective about what is "good" and "evil". IF Jaheira can overlook her innate racial hatred and Minsc can state (in his child-like innocence) that this execution is not right - then THAT should give the PC pause to think.

I have another game with a female CG kensai. I originally allowed Viconia to be killed, but later got to thinking about the objections raised by Jaheira and Minsc. After thinking it over, I decided that their opinions were sufficient reason to question the legitimacy of the execution...so I reloaded and Saved Viconia - but I still didn't let her join the party.