Views on EU enlargement

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by johnny: Poland must be one giant shithole if they want to leave THAT desperately.

Whether it actually is or isn't is irrelevant. It's whether the kids think it is that counts. It's like New Zealand. Most university graduates can't wait to get out of this isolated, bottom-of-the-world 'shithole' (myself included), just because they want to have an adventure and go somewhere unfamiliar. It's not until they do their OE ('Overseas Experience') to the over-crowded cities of Asia, Europe and America that they realise how nice it is here. Our dollar may be weaker than other Nations, but when you are living here, and everyone is using our money, it doesn't really matter.

[promethius9594]

heh? india, a superpower? in fifty years?

not happening. china, US and the EU (if it actually forms a nation) have the potential to be/remain superpowers. india is severely lacking in certain aspects that it would need to become a super power.

MAYBE in 50 years we will see india as a world power, but not until they fix a few issues. china, im willing to bet, will remain only a world power until it switches to democracy and the EU wont even be a power until it becomes a legitimate government over the "nation" of europe.

at which point, america is going to have to buy mexico and send a platoon up to invade canada in order to keep in the runnings.

[Dreamer128]

Regardless of how many people are willing to move here, we won't allow more then 22 000 in. Of course, I've been told there are about 40 000 people already in The Netherlands.

[Dreamer128]

Hm.. the BBC has opened a message board about the European Enlargement. A few interesting opinions there. It can be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3660227.stm

[ 05-01-2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

[Skunk]

Originally posted by johnny: Well, if they're going to prostitute themselves like that, i guess you're right. But don't you think that educated young Polish know how much they can really make ? And that they would still do it for much less than Dutch citizens would, just to get that job ? Poland must be one giant shithole if they want to leave THAT desperately.

Unemployment in Poland is very HIGH. I don't have figures for Poland, but how about some statistics for another new EU member, Lithuania:


1. Average earnings in Lithuania (pop: 3.6m) = $4,800 (4,000 EUR) per YEAR
2. Unemployment = 10% (officially), (unofficial estimates have it more like 25%)
3. Social security - only available for six months at a massive $150 eur per month (you must work before you can get this, so young people out of university may not apply). No housing benefits either
http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0...208786,00.html

The word 's-hole' is a bit strong, but it is clearly disadvantaged, and if you are young and have brains, you are going to migrate as soon as possible. Afterall, you get more on the dole in the Netherlands/UK/Germany than the average person earns from working in Lithuania and a job paying the minimum wage in the Netherlands is still 3.5 times higher than the average wage in Lithuania...

And for those Lithuanians who do not come (along with the nine other countries), their relative poverty will take the lion's share of EU financing (development aid/economic assistance etc.) for years and years to come.

[johnny]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: Regardless of how many people are willing to move here, we won't allow more then 22 000 in. Of course, I've been told there are about 40 000 people already in The Netherlands.

22.000 is 22.000 too many. Why would we wanna import Polish workers, when there's hundreds of thousands of people already living on welfare ? And where will they live ? Isn't there a huge waitinglist for people who seek a house ? I know there is, because i'm on it myself.

[Donut]

Originally posted by johnny: I've also heard that most of them regard Holland as the ideal spot to start building up a new existance. I'm afraid they might be a little misinformed, because there are hardly any decent jobs available here, and unemployement is rising each month.

They won't be doing the decent jobs, they'll be doing the jobs we won't do.

[johnny]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by johnny: I've also heard that most of them regard Holland as the ideal spot to start building up a new existance. I'm afraid they might be a little misinformed, because there are hardly any decent jobs available here, and unemployement is rising each month.

They won't be doing the decent jobs, they'll be doing the jobs we won't do. [/QUOTE]We're talking about educated people, aren't we ? Do you really think they would come all the way down here to clean our toilets ? There's plenty of jobs like that where they come from i reckon, so they must be coming here looking for something better. Why else did they get an education ?

[Skunk]

Originally posted by johnny: quote: Originally posted by Dreamer128: Regardless of how many people are willing to move here, we won't allow more then 22 000 in. Of course, I've been told there are about 40 000 people already in The Netherlands.

22.000 is 22.000 too many. Why would we wanna import Polish workers, when there's hundreds of thousands of people already living on welfare ? And where will they live ? Isn't there a huge waitinglist for people who seek a house ? I know there is, because i'm on it myself. [/QUOTE]The public housing system works the same here as in (almost) every other EU country - those with the greatest needs are allocated housing first, no matter how long they have been on the waiting list.

Thus, if I arrive in NL with my family in tow and claim 'homelessness', then I have a right to go to the TOP OF THE LIST - meaning that people who have waited for a long time are shoved that much further back in the queue:
My wife waited for 15 years without getting a home! before meeting me and then having enough money to buy.

Right now Den Haag, Amsterdam and Rotterdam, gain an additional 30,000 immigrant residents per year between them from Morroco and Turkey alone - that's why the waiting lists are so long. Imagine the extra pressure from new EU-states and it won't be worth being on the list (is it worth bothering with now?)

And whether we want east-block workers is irrelevant, as they now have a RIGHT to come, regardless of whether that is desirable.

Originally posted by Donut: They won't be doing the decent jobs, they'll be doing the jobs we won't do.

Correction - they'll be doing the decent jobs without the decent wage, resulting in a downward wage spiral as market forces kick in.

Business leaders are rubbing their hands at the chances to reduce their payroll overheads, ex-east block workers are rubbing their hands at the thought of doubling their incomes and the existing workers in established EU countries are going to have to accept pay cuts and wage-rise freezes if they want to keep their jobs after the immigration restriction periods end.

You don't really think that a Polish business grad, software engineer or college educated kid is going to clean toilets in waterloo station, do you? You not really suggesting that a carpenter, bricklayer, mechanic is going to settle for cleaning pots and pans in a restaurant?


[ 05-04-2004, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Sparhawk]

To the dutch-men in here...

I think your situation in Holland is worse than in the rest of EU...since there is a LOT of imigrants in holland to start with.
I remember the news telling about Piet Van sumthin ( that plitician that was killed )and they always marked him as a fanatic and a rascist...for some weird reason, I just keep thinking that he might have had the best grap on realities in the dutch political system thus far.

Anyway...in Denmark there is the usual hype about polish youngsters stealing work from danish people...and I suppose that the risk is serious...but to be frank...I am not going into the field and harvesting carrots and cucumbers so if the farmer wants to hire cheap polish labour for that he has my blessing....it might even make him competative against the new farms from the east.
The highly educated people ( of whom I am not one ) will probally have little to fear, since there have been a flux between the countries on these positions in advance.

What we have to think about is that this migration-period we are living in is fairly new and that the world is an ever-changing place...surely it is happening a LOT faster today with airplanes, boats and cars...what I am getting at is that just 50 years ago this migration was not happening...with the sole exception of USA...everyone wanted to go there and did so!

My point being...in the future...with the mix and flux of nationalities we might indeed see EU turn into the superpower that equals USA.
I think that India and China will follow closely after, China is a place of opportunities at the moment and India is in the proces of turning into a "wealthy" country.

What we really need to look out for, is the constant threat of the smaller states around the world...the threat-assesment of the world has changed over the last two decades.
From having two superpowers fighting in the shadows to having smaller threats fighting in the open with the superpowers...i.e. Tjetinia and Iraq gives us all a certain amount of insecurity...EU does not have these issues at the current moment...of course we have some involvement in Iraq...but certanly not on an EU-plane of decision.


*pheeeeow* a lot of cheap words from the dane