Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

[Luvian]

Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood Uhh, yeah, cause I eat that kinda stuff all the time.

Animals do, and so would you if you weren't evolved and were living in the jungle, like our theoretical ancestors did.

I get the impression you don't test your faith often, and that you don't know much about science. There's nothing wrong in learning how the other side is thinking, and maybe some of that thinking is even compatible with your belief.

After all, why wouldn't God give human and animals the mean to differentiate between food and poison? This isn't something reserved only for evolution, and I would have thought everyone knew what the tongue was used for, be they religious or not.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

No, I don't test my faith. My Father does that for me. Nothing like good refiners fire!

What I'm saying is that we don't need our taste buds for that anymore. So, why havn't we lost them? And if what you say is true, then why do we loose 50% of them by the time we reach 60. We should become more acute, not less. I think in the animal kingdom it's more about smell than taste anyway.

I think they've become/or perhaps intended as, more of a pleasure thing and I test them at every opportunity.

Maybe a bad example...

[Lavindathar]

I don't think you can compare evolution and old age...

Evolution takes millions of years, old age is just cells in the body down wearing down over a short period of time (60 years for example) and no longer functioning.

And Variol, I admire the amount of faith you have, but also kinda pity you for it (don't take offense at that). It just seems to me you are living in a bubble.

Go read up on the major works regarding Evolution, even the most die hard of Christians will find it hard not to be swayed to the idea that, Evolution exists.

You can stand there with your faith, but you only know one side of the story. Many here in this post know both, and impo, most are leaning towards evolution.

I on the other hand am the oppsoite of you, I know the Science part, but not the Relgious part. Well, not in depth anyway. I know there was an Ark in the bible for example. (btw, they mistold that story in the bible, cos that ark sank on its second day, just they left that bit out so it didnt scare the kids )

[Dragonshadow]

Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood And if what you say is true, then why do we loose 50% of them by the time we reach 60.

Humans aren't really designed to live all that long - Before we came up with medicine, we would have died off in our 30s. Parts of the body wear out.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

I know you misunderstand me. I just find the "theory" of evolution and the big bang "theory" are taken as fact and there's no enough evidence to support it. So, I'm just asking that as long as that's what it is, lets call it that.

Evolutionists have no problem whatsoever denouncing anything in the Bible, but heaven forbid someone should question their theories.

Can we at least say that some supreme being had to have started something, however small, or big? Just until we know otherwise? Is that so bad? You don't have to kneel to Him; you don't have to worship Him; you have to care one lick about Him.
In fact, I'm glad you don't! I'm glad you have the freedom to choose and I hope that never changes, 'cos once we find out for sure that creation is true, arn't we really just slaves to it?

I could tell you about plenty of miracles, but a non-believer will chalk them up to chance, coincidence, or whatever. So, I take my faith, weak though it may be and continue to drudge along, failing in my faith and sinning every day, such is my choice.

[Jaradu]

Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood Can we at least say that some supreme being had to have started something, however small, or big? Just until we know otherwise? Is that so bad

Sorry, it works the other way around.

I believe there is a teapot orbiting Jupiter, and until you can prove otherwise, let's just assume it exists.

I believe there is an elephant under my bed, and until you can prove otherwise, let's just assume it exists.

I believe there is a magical space-daddy who made everything in the universe, and until you can prove otherwise, let's just assume he exists.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claims, not the rest, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Luvian]

Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood I know you misunderstand me. I just find the "theory" of evolution and the big bang "theory" are taken as fact and there's no enough evidence to support it. So, I'm just asking that as long as that's what it is, lets call it that. Evolutionists have no problem whatsoever denouncing anything in the Bible, but heaven forbid someone should question their theories. Can we at least say that some supreme being had to have started something, however small, or big? Just until we know otherwise? Is that so bad? You don't have to kneel to Him; you don't have to worship Him; you have to care one lick about Him. In fact, I'm glad you don't! I'm glad you have the freedom to choose and I hope that never changes, 'cos once we find out for sure that creation is true, arn't we really just slaves to it? I could tell you about plenty of miracles, but a non-believer will chalk them up to chance, coincidence, or whatever. So, I take my faith, weak though it may be and continue to drudge along, failing in my faith and sinning every day, such is my choice.

Asking an atheist to acknowledge God until we can prove he doesn't exist is the same as if they asked you to disavow God until we can prove he exist. That's not going to happen and may piss some people off.

I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning Science, but you aren't asking the good questions. You need to do more researches if you want your arguments to be taken seriously. It shows you don't have much knowledge of the subject.

[Yorick]

Hey guys, just got in from a gig, so I'll wait till tomorrow to do some replying, but I just wanted to say something in defense of Variol.

Namely that whether he knows much about what he's arguing AGAINST is not entirely relevant if we're all sharing our opinions. What matters more is that he knows about what he's arguing FOR. I mean how many people arguing against creationism have actually studied creation science? Most people even now still presume creationism is based on the genesis story and that's it.

What are people's experiences with church? How many naysayers here have gone to church each week for over a year? Are people basing their negatives on personal experience or what they see on TV?

How many people who say God's not there have even tried asking him if he is there? Not just lip service but actually sending your thoughts out to the maker of the universe and asked him if he's there, and if he is, to show you that he is somehow. How many naysayers have honestly done that?

All of our experiences in life are valid. Only each of us know what it's like to live in our own shoes. Variol seems to know his life, and has seen God's hand in it. Are we expected to know his life if we're to counter his data?

So that's just my 2c. I enjoy reading up on counter opinions to my own. I own a Qu'ran for example. Books on Norse religion/myth. Have read much about Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and other faiths, along with books like "Religions of the World" by Huston Smith. But I have my own reasons for that. There are many Christians who only focus on the Bible.

And why not?

The bible is an amazing work that I actually need to spend more time reading! I only recently reread the book of Job after reading a book called "Neither poverty nor Riches" by Craig Blumberg, and as a 36 year old man, found the arguments between Job and his friends suddenly meant far more to me than ever before. Because I had gone through certain difficult situations and tested two different strands of Christian though on prosperity over the last 6 years, I now understood both the friends arguments in a new way, and Job's counters also.

Here I was rereading the Bible for the kazillionth time, and I felt like I was reading something completely new, because I had changed.

So anyway, if a Christian or an atheist or a Muslim "lives in a bubble" I for one do not feel that this de-validates their opinion one iota, as we all live in our own "bubble" to a degree, which is why it's nice to share some of what we see in places like this.

Kudos to IW for leaving this thread open, and thanks so much for everyone's respectful dialogue. So much nicer than the drivel you can see on less mature sites.

Have a great one, and I'll read you in the morning!

[Luvian]

Excellent points Yorick. My position wasn't that Variol should stop, but to encourage him to do some research, find some hard questions to come back with and also learn something new in the process.

I have to admit I don't know that much myself about organized religions since I stopped practicing after my first confession when I was a kid. If I were to try and refute an organized religion my arguments would most likely be full of holes because I barely know the subject.

Edit: Might as well share a little anecdote while I'm at it. About two years ago, I spent 4 months helping out at my local church's soup kitchen. The other people who worked there (mostly poor, uneducated and penniless people, but who none the less liked to help others even if they couldn't afford it) were absolutely nice human beings with more dedication and compassion I will ever have.

But the priest? Oh, how I hated him. Why? Because he hated the homeless people we fed in his basement and only tolerated us because we did all the maintenance and chores of his church for free. He thought of them as bums and lowlifes, people who stunk up his church for his real churchgoers who visited the main floor.

At one time on a nice summer day he called the police because an homeless man who had nowhere to go (they were not welcome in the main church) had lain down on the grass to enjoy the breeze and watch the clouds. He wasn't out front where people could see him, he was out back where only employees and soup visitors entered by. Can you believe it? He had him thrown out by the cops the moment his butt touched the grass. (He had an underling whose sole job was to spy on us.) I hope he at least didn't charge the poor guy with anything.

There's no real moral to this, maybe beside you don't always find compassion where you would expect it.

[dplax]

Originally Posted by Yorick What are people's experiences with church? How many naysayers here have gone to church each week for over a year? Are people basing their negatives on personal experience or what they see on TV? How many people who say God's not there have even tried asking him if he is there? Not just lip service but actually sending your thoughts out to the maker of the universe and asked him if he's there, and if he is, to show you that he is somehow. How many naysayers have honestly done that?

I'll venture my own story to that. I first went to church when I was four or five. (disregarding the times when you are taken as a baby for christening, etc...) Why? Because my grandmother once took me. I went almost every Sunday morning for five years. Then I stopped, because I didn't like waking up that early on a Sunday and preferred sleeping in.

I don't remember ever asking God for anything. I think I was too young to understand what I was going through. The church I was going to had this great child-attracting children's mass every Sunday morning where they showed colourful pictures additionally to the usual mass.

I've never gone to church since (well, except for visiting churches to see the architecture and stained-glass windows). I couldn't say whether I drifted away from the idea, or whether I never really embraced the idea and only went since I was a kid and didn't know what I was doing.

I've gone through seventeen years of education since the age of six. The latter half of it was scientific (maths secondary school and then an IT university). I did have religious education classes when I spent four months in Ireland. I was thirteen then. The one thing I remember of those classes was the teacher saying that we know that the Bible is true because the writers of the gospels did not know each other and still wrote similar things. The others in the class accepted what she said at face value, I asked the question "How do we know?". She couldn't answer. Of course that doesn't say anything about the answer to the question, it's simply what has happened to me.

I have no problem with people choosing to believe in some supreme being or choosing to believe in an explanation via science. I have a problem with people trying to force their ideas on others, whether it be "softly", via organized religion (you don't need a priest or an imam to be able to believe) or in "harder" ways like forced conversions/extermination of those not belonging to religion X.

I abhor organized religions and churches for what they have done during the past. Whatever the reasons for the crusades, it was the Vatican that ordered them. The sack of Constantinople suited the Vatican at the time of the 4th crusade. It was in the name of Islam that Southwestern Europe, Southern Europe and North Africa were conquered between 622 and the 16th century. The Inquisition was simply trying to enforce a religion on others and killing those who did not take it. Religious wars just because one side was protestant and the other catholic occured and not just once. Romans persecuted Christians because they did not believe in their gods.

Anyway, I'll stop before I get going on a full-fledged rant, I guess I've made my point anyway. I personally don't believe, because I have no reason to. I have never seen a "sign" or never had any proof as to the existence of some superior being. Maybe others would have interpreted some of what I've seen as a "sign", but then opinions can differ. I have no problem with others believing, even if it is something non-conventional like scientology or pagan gods. I can accept that for some people that is what they really believe in. I just don't like it when someone tells someone else what he is supposed to believe in.

There. Sorry for the long(ish) post.