Religion in Schools

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by IronDragon: Unfortunately the United states has a rather poor history of protecting the rights of minority religions and history is rife with examples of forced conversion of children to Christianity.

Then I'm sure you wouldn't mind listing a few examples of these "forced conversions" for debate purposes. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Sure we did, just look at how we have tried to obliterate the tiny sliver of Native Americans that survived the initial biological assualt and wars of genocide prior to the countriy's forming. Native American childern were dragged from their parents houses and sent to boarding schools, told their parents were dead and raised to be good little christian americans.

Try reading -Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West It is a very intense account from the Indian side. Some of the stories are so sad and powerful they would leave me in tear.

For a taste you can checkout this page:
http://www.genealogyforum.rootsweb.c...NA/gfinsch.htm

All of what you describe would be illegal back here in the east Rokenn...or are you speaking of a different time period in our history?

The Native Americans were treated horribly and it was a disgrace on our ancestors, but I know for a fact that I personally have not mistreated any Native Americans, and so refuse to bear any guilt or responsibility for those acts...otherwise Id spend all my time apologizing for World War II since I am partly of german descent.

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by MagiK: All of what you describe would be illegal back here in the east Rokenn...or are you speaking of a different time period in our history? The Native Americans were treated horribly and it was a disgrace on our ancestors, but I know for a fact that I personally have not mistreated any Native Americans, and so refuse to bear any guilt or responsibility for those acts...otherwise Id spend all my time apologizing for World War II since I am partly of german descent.

Cerek asked for examples of forced conversion, I supplied one. Why do you feel the need to attack it?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Rokenn: Sure we did, just look at how we have tried to obliterate the tiny sliver of Native Americans that survived the initial biological assualt and wars of genocide prior to the countriy's forming. Native American childern were dragged from their parents houses and sent to boarding schools, told their parents were dead and raised to be good little christian americans. Try reading -Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West It is a very intense account from the Indian side. Some of the stories are so sad and powerful they would leave me in tear. For a taste you can checkout this page: http://www.genealogyforum.rootsweb.c...NA/gfinsch.htm [/QB]

Touche' Rokenn. I had forgotten about the treatment of Native American children as the settlers moved farther west. It also ties into our original topic of Prayer in School, so I'll even give you bonus points for this example. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Rokenn: Cerek asked for examples of forced conversion, I supplied one. Why do you feel the need to attack it?

My sincere apologies if that was taken as an "attack" I did use my silly smiley on purpose there, and while I ment it as a point about holding innocent descendants accountable for the actions of their forefathers I didn't mean to seem all aggressive or anything.

[IronDragon]

Originally posted by Rokenn

Sure we did, just look at how we have tried to obliterate the tiny sliver of Native Americans that survived the initial biological assualt and wars of genocide prior to the countriy's forming. Native American childern were dragged from their parents houses and sent to boarding schools, told their parents were dead and raised to be good little christian americans. Try reading -Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West It is a very intense account from the Indian side. Some of the stories are so sad and powerful they would leave me in tear. For a taste you can checkout this page: http://www.genealogyforum.rootsweb.c...NA/gfinsch.htm

Thanks for the support and the references.

On a personal note my spouse’s maternal grandparents were both forced to become Christian as children. They and their siblings bore the physical and emotional scars until their deaths. It was not only religion but any use of a native language was forbidden. Nicca’s hands were scarred to wrists when her punishment for speaking Ojibwa to her sister was to have the Baptist minister plunge her hands into boiling water.
Nicca was appalled when her daughter not only rejected Christianity but sought to become trained as a Medicine Woman. She begged to continue to pretend to be Christian for the sake of her children. When the Children became old enough Nicca told them they must keep the language and their beliefs a secret or the Whites would come and take them away and punish them like she was punished.

BTW Nicca is the Ojibwa word for both Grandmother and the Moon. Since her mother’s death three years ago my mother-in-law has assumed that title for the family.

As the growing collection of nieces and nephews approach school age (Nicca’s sixth grandchild is due in August) my sibling-laws are pondering just how to balance their children’s religion with their fears of persecution.

Less you think this is paranoia or something that does not happen any more please think again. I have a very good friend who is a Social Worker in San Diego. He recently told me about receiving training in identifying ritual abuse and sexual abuse of children. The speaker advised that anytime the workers encounter a family who is not either Jewish or Christian the children of the family must automatically be considered victims of either ritual abuse or sexual abuse. The expert then displayed two books, the Bhagavad Gita and the Tao Te Ching as examples of Satanic texts. If you don’t know what these books are; shame on you.

[Bardan the Slayer]

Originally posted by Reeka: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Ok, time for me to toss my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] into the hat. The US and its constitution and its judicial system were all created under the principles of Christianity. All of the founding fathers believed in Christianity and were convinced of the necessity of having those core values incorporated into our country. They swore oaths, pledged them selves truthful under god and acknowledged the existance of god on their currency and in their official documents.

Actually, most of the "founding fathers" were not Christians, but deists. Big difference between deists and theists.

Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."
More Jefferson:

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

John Adams:

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

Also Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Here's Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."
"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance."

And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

Finally let's hear from James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."
Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Also, the motto "In God We Trust" was not added onto money until the 1860's I believe. Hardly an act of the "founding fathers."


------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/QUOTE]Ouch! The perception of the USA I always had was that Magik was right and it was founded on Christianity, but reading this, it seems like the founding fathers had quite a high level of disgust for Christianity.

I guess the common perception may be (and certainly the one I had) was that America is a Christian country (in general) because it grew out of the Christianity of the founding fathers. Looks like I should change my perception to 'America is a Christian country in spite of the opinions of the founding fathers.'

It was certainly an eye-opener to see how vehemently some of those great men denied that they wanted anything to do with Christianity and the Christian Church, especially when it came to the business of founding a Government.

[Reeka]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by Reeka: John Adams: "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

Could this particular quote have been a typo? How did John Adams know what a "carload" was, since cars hadn't been invented yet. Perhaps he meant "cartload" instead.

As for the various quotes, the information is interesting to read...but it sounds like the same arguments I hear today from non-believers. Blame the church and Christianity for the ills of the world. Not really surprising when you consider these founding fathers had left England partly because of their dislike of the Church of England and its actions. But not entirely accurate either. [/QUOTE]car - 1301, "wheeled vehicle," from Norm.-Fr. carre, from L. carrum, carrus (pl. carra), orig. "two-wheeled Celtic war chariot," from Gaul. karros, from PIE *krsos, from base *kers- "to run." Extension to "automobile" is 1896.


Not a typo, Cerek. My point was that the US was NOT founded on Christian principles and the majority of the founding fathers were NOT Christians. I am not anti-Christian, but I am pointing this out because ALOT of Americans assume that because "their Creator" is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, that the "founding fathers" were Christians and acted on Christian principles. Thomas Jefferson, who drafted it, was particularly emphatic about NOT being Christian. I just like for people when they argue a point (not referring to you Cerek) to get their facts straight and to not make unfounded assumptions.

I stated in my first post on this thread my opinion about religion in schools. I made these last posts to try to dispel inaccuracies that were being thrown about. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Reeka, thanks for your excellent posts today. Loved the info. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Who knew a car was so old? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Reeka: car - 1301, "wheeled vehicle," from Norm.-Fr. carre, from L. carrum, carrus (pl. carra), orig. "two-wheeled Celtic war chariot," from Gaul. karros, from PIE *krsos, from base *kers- "to run." Extension to "automobile" is 1896. Not a typo, Cerek. My point was that the US was NOT founded on Christian principles and the majority of the founding fathers were NOT Christians. I am not anti-Christian, but I am pointing this out because ALOT of Americans assume that because "their Creator" is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, that the "founding fathers" were Christians and acted on Christian principles. Thomas Jefferson, who drafted it, was particularly emphatic about NOT being Christian. I just like for people when they argue a point (not referring to you Cerek) to get their facts straight and to not make unfounded assumptions. I stated in my first post on this thread my opinion about religion in schools. I made these last posts to try to dispel inaccuracies that were being thrown about. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I stand corrected. I apologize for the "tone" of my previous post. I wasn't trying to "nitpick" your comments, but I knew it would sound that way. I honostly thought it was a typo.

And as Bardan pointed out - your post (and the others like it) certainly WERE "eye-openers". I also had always thought the founding fathers were very religious. Looks like I was wrong.