Religion in Schools

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by IronDragon: Unfortunately the United states has a rather poor history of protecting the rights of minority religions and history is rife with examples of forced conversion of children to Christianity.

Then I'm sure you wouldn't mind listing a few examples of these "forced conversions" for debate purposes. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-28-2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

[Reeka]

Originally posted by MagiK: Ok, time for me to toss my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] into the hat. The US and its constitution and its judicial system were all created under the principles of Christianity. All of the founding fathers believed in Christianity and were convinced of the necessity of having those core values incorporated into our country. They swore oaths, pledged them selves truthful under god and acknowledged the existance of god on their currency and in their official documents.

Actually, most of the "founding fathers" were not Christians, but deists. Big difference between deists and theists.

Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Jefferson again:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."
More Jefferson:

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."

John Adams:

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

Also Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Here's Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."
"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance."

And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

Finally let's hear from James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."
Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Also, the motto "In God We Trust" was not added onto money until the 1860's I believe. Hardly an act of the "founding fathers."


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[ 05-28-2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Reeka ]

[Chewbacca]

Thanks for the eye-openers, Reeka.

I am beginning to see how it might pay to have more than a superficial knowledge of the founding citizens. I'm going to the library! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Reeka]

Originally posted by MagiK: all in all a nice collection of works, but hardly the "last word" on the subject...can you tell me when and where the custom of swearing of oaths on the christian bible came into play? Im thinking it was in the wors when Washington was sworn into office..but I can't find a reference. Your post provides room for debate [img]smile.gif[/img] and indicates that even the founders were not all of one mind [img]smile.gif[/img] Sort of like th slavery issue and many other issues they passed over to be ironed out later in ammendments 1 - 27 But I do not bleieve anything you posted contradicted my assertions that our judicial system of laws and regulations are all based on biblical precepts.

"Article II, section 1, clause 8 of the Constitution requires the president to say: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." No one has ever deviated from the text. Even though Quakers object to swearing oaths, all presidents, even Quakers Richard Nixon and Herbert Hoover, have chosen the "swear" option.

While "So help me, God," is the familiar ending to the oath, it is not required. This was spontaneously added at the first inaugural by George Washington. Not wanting to mess with success, every subsequent president has said it. (The vice presidential oath, which is set out in the U.S. Code, does mandate the phrase.) A hand on the Bible is a custom from the British but not required, though all presidents have done it.


Emily Yoffe is a frequent contributor to Slate. You can e-mail her at eyoffe@hotmail.com."

[Luvian]

Nice post Reeka! I agree with them, I believe in god, but I consider the Christian church to be the biggest fraud ever. No dictatorsip or countries ever caused as much pain, abuse, and cruelties as the Christian church. They are also opposed to women's rights and to almost any technological evolution.

To me, faith is a personal thing not to be shared. You know what they say: "power corupt, absolute power corrupt ablolutely". Well...religion is the absolute power...

Look like I'm going to do some research on those "deists".

[ 05-28-2003, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Reeka: John Adams: "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

Could this particular quote have been a typo? How did John Adams know what a "carload" was, since cars hadn't been invented yet. Perhaps he meant "cartload" instead.

As for the various quotes, the information is interesting to read...but it sounds like the same arguments I hear today from non-believers. Blame the church and Christianity for the ills of the world. Not really surprising when you consider these founding fathers had left England partly because of their dislike of the Church of England and its actions. But not entirely accurate either.

[wellard]

If I may, I would like to put foreword a hypothetical situation.


If religious education had been allowed to flourish in schools imagine this...

ADVERT 1

"Send your children to XXXXXXX school we promise that your child will spend 4 hours every day learning the scriptures and at prayer unlike those state run heathen schools that only teach 12 hours a week! We also teach maths and English".

ADVERT 2

"Send your child to YYYYYYY School. We promise that your child will be taught and raised as a true Christian. A strict 7-hour a day regime of old testament (and new, if enrolled for after hours schooling) and Christian lifestyles. Would you risk your child’s future by sending them to some school that only goes through the motions of teaching them how to be model citizens?

ADVERT 3

"Send your girl to the school of fundamentalism. Why bother teaching her anything but how to be a wife to her god and husband. Your girl will have potential suitors lining up to marry her when she graduates from ZZZZZZ School."


far fetched? maybe not

[robertthebard]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by IronDragon: Unfortunately the United states has a rather poor history of protecting the rights of minority religions and history is rife with examples of forced conversion of children to Christianity.

Then I'm sure you wouldn't mind listing a few examples of these "forced conversions" for debate purposes. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]The Salem Witch Trials, The Inquisition
edit here: The worst part of some of these, was that the *converts* were still burnt, hung, or drowned. Now I can't attest to the accuracy of this next comment, but I seem to recall reading that the *battle cry* through out the Inquisition was *You're either with us, or against us.* So, since the Bible only allows for two roads, any one not a Christian is a Satanist. I'll pass. I'm not a Christian, and since most of the Christian depictions of Satan come from Wiccan temples in Europe...*Bucklands* for reference on this last little bit about the depiction.

[ 05-29-2003, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: robertthebard ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by robertthebard: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by IronDragon: Unfortunately the United states has a rather poor history of protecting the rights of minority religions and history is rife with examples of forced conversion of children to Christianity.

Then I'm sure you wouldn't mind listing a few examples of these "forced conversions" for debate purposes. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]The Salem Witch Trials, The Inquisition
edit here: The worst part of some of these, was that the *converts* were still burnt, hung, or drowned. Now I can't attest to the accuracy of this next comment, but I seem to recall reading that the *battle cry* through out the Inquisition was *You're either with us, or against us.* So, since the Bible only allows for two roads, any one not a Christian is a Satanist. I'll pass. I'm not a Christian, and since most of the Christian depictions of Satan come from Wiccan temples in Europe...*Bucklands* for reference on this last little bit about the depiction. [/QUOTE]Those are good examples, robert, but they did not involve children (for the most part). That was why I edited my original statement to include "forced conversion of children". I knew the Spanish Inquisition would be offered as one of the first examples of religious persecution (and rightly so). I don't know as much about the Inquisition as I should, but I think you are fairly accurate about the *battle cry*. I also agree that the Salem Witch Trials are one of the blackest marks on American history and religious persecution. The women and girls accused of witchery were doomed from the moment they were accused. If they managed to survive the dunking seat and other "trials" (ie tortures) they were put through...then that was considered PROOF that they were witches - so they were promptly burned or hung. [img]graemlins/dontknowaboutyou.gif[/img] The only way they could "prove" their innocence was by NOT surviving the various "trials".

Still, as heinous as that example is, it involved mostly women in their teens and 20's - not children.

My point is that most children don't have their own ideas regarding religion or theology...so it is inaccurate to say that they underwent "forced conversions" since this implies they were actively practicing a different religion.

I'm not trying to imply that Christianity has a spotless history. It certainly doesn't. Many atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity (just as 9/11 was committed in the name of Allah and the Muslim religion). But the actions of a few flawed members should not be considered representative of the religion as a whole.

Oh - btw - the Bible doesn't have "just two roads" (Christianity or Satanism). In fact, the Bible doesn't mention the worship of Satan very much at all. It does condemn the worship of "pagan gods", but Satan is not listed as one of these "gods". The Bible differentiates between believers and non-believers - but it instructs the believers to witness to the non-believers so that they may have an opportunity to know God also. Non-believers are not just automatically "written off" and tossed away.

Just a point of order....from what I have been reading, the Spanish inquisition had as much to do about money as it did about religion....yes the jews were targeted..but they were also the bankers and or money lenders. I think any aims at conversion in the Inquisition were after thoughts.