Terrorists hit London -- Bombs in Underground and a Bus

[Aragorn1]

Originally posted by Lanesra: quote: Originally posted by wellard: My best wishes to all Just an observation I made from watching the news all last night was the calmness of the people of London and the supurb actions of the emergancy services, a credit to one all. I think (red)Ken Livingstone (the Mayor) is right when he talks about the best way to show these scum that the British will not be bullied into submission is for things to get back to normal ASAP. Once again best wishes to those back in blighty

Good point mate.

I am so proud to be a Londoner at the momment, proud of the people I work with who made it in to work, proud of my 20 year old stepaughter, who despite being offered the day off on friday, went to work on the underground, passing through Kings X, scene of one of the bombs on her way, proud of our emergency services, who reacted so fast, with little thought for themselves, proud of the everyday Londoners, involved in the bombs, who stayed to help others who were worse off than themselves.

Just proud of the spirit of this city and it's people, Black, White,Christian , Jew , Muslim, Hindu, sikh, Who are all in this together, and have the same message to the people that did this..
F**K YOU, IF YOU THINK YOU WILL BEAT US, WELL YOU JUST DONT KNOW US!! [/QUOTE]I think the country is proud of the people of London and the way in which the people of the city responded. The spirit shown is a credit to the country and it make me proud to call myself British. They shall never beat us. Their attacks only strengthen our will to prevail.

(don't really feel like getting into the arguements above, maybe when things are a bit less raw.)

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: Errrm, I quoted that from the previous page of this thread. If it wasn't relevant then its not my fault you posted it here. If it was relevant then I really don't see your problem with me quoting it. If there is a high incidence of Muslim countries being poor then you are right it might suggest a causal link between the two. But that doesn't mean culture causes poverty, what is much more likely is exactly the reverse. The idea that Muslim people are more predisposed to poverty is offensive and patently ridiculous. The idea that people who have nothing would seek some kind of comfort in a religion that teaches, amongst other things, a strong brand of anti-materialism is surely just common sense. Your conclusion that poverty is caused by culture just plain isn't supported by certain cultures being dominant in poor societies. It seems infinitely more plausible that culture is caused by poverty.

Just out of idle couriousity(sp?) on this culture doesn't cause poverty thingie you are trying to promote. Why were the Islamic countries in the late dark ages and middle ages the most advanced and some of the most powerful countries on the planet, but they are not now that way? The culture has not changed much at all compared to the culture of the west, which during those times was not the most powerful. Remember the Mongols, marching through eastern Europe, well they tried the same thing in the middle east but were stoped by Salidin's(sp?) forces. The Mongol invasions of Europe was stopped by Ghengis Khan death, not at the hands of European armies. So now histroy tells us the during that time period Islamic countries are #1 (or close to it) in the world, Europe is NOT #1, time marches on. European culture changes, remember that little civil war you folks had in GB between the Royal supporter and the Parlament supporters? The Reformation movement? The Rennaissance (basicly Europe rediscovering things allready KNOWN in the Islamic world.) Your Culture changed, now lets look at the Islamic countries mmmmmmmmmm.......mmmmmmmmm.......mmmmmmm.........m mmmmmmmm........mmmmmmmmm, NO significant changes in culture. Now let's jump ahead to the 1700-1800's after the changes in culture GB #1 Islamic counties NOT #1. MMMMMMMM....couldn't be poverty causing the Islamic culture, because they started out as the richest, most powerful didn't change their culture but got progressively poorer in comparsion to the rest of the World, their greatest competitors, who changed their culture. Now let's move to the 1900's the USA starts it's climb to the top after it receives it's culture as a direct result of the Parlamentarians winning the English civil war, the Reformation, The Rennaissance and changes in the culture from which the USA sprang forth. The USA starts out at the bottom tries something that had not truely been around since the Greeks and Romans, refines it changes it more (thus an addtional change in culture) and with in 50 years is #1. Well let's look at the Islamic countries, no change in culture, but there is a change in standing(poverty in realtion to the rest of the world) they are going BACKWARDS. How can that happen unless poverty follows culture? In other words culture effect poverty more then poverty effects culture! That is the record HISTORY bares out. Accept the lessons of history or not, but facts is facts. Wishing and wanting don't change facts, they only change the ability to see facts.

Now it might try to be argued that the Islamic world changed their culture, they went from Sultans to Warlords to Military Dictators, but that is not a change in culture that is a change in the names used to call their dictatorial leaders. The culture has remained vurtualy unchanged for nearly 1400 years, the last change they had was the introduction of Islam which started them on their upwards movement.

Even more so for China they went from Emperors to to Party Chairman, just a name change of a dictatoral leader, not a culture change.

[ 07-10-2005, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Lanesra: Good point mate. I am so proud to be a Londoner at the momment, proud of the people I work with who made it in to work, proud of my 20 year old stepaughter, who despite being offered the day off on friday, went to work on the underground, passing through Kings X, scene of one of the bombs on her way, proud of our emergency services, who reacted so fast, with little thought for themselves, proud of the everyday Londoners, involved in the bombs, who stayed to help others who were worse off than themselves. Just proud of the spirit of this city and it's people, Black, White,Christian , Jew , Muslim, Hindu, sikh, Who are all in this together, and have the same message to the people that did this.. F**K YOU, IF YOU THINK YOU WILL BEAT US, WELL YOU JUST DONT KNOW US!!

What's that Wiston C said "Never, never, never give up".

I'm glad to see Mama still has fight in her! Though there has been some Family squablin' amoungst us in the past, you can know, we're proud to have sprung forth from your loins. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Morgeruat]

Azred for a pretty good website discussing violence and Islam check out http://answering-islam.org.uk/

The following link is surprisingly telling. And don't forget that Mohammed is viewed as the perfect man by the religion and he sets the standard for behavior. The section entitled Mohammed's Dead Poet Society is also rather telling.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Muhammad/Jews/index.html

Also as John D noted above, there has been no Rennaissance in the middle east, no Martin Luther nailing his points against the Catholic Church to the doors of a church, and those who are most militant are those who look to the original works hadiths, and the quran (all of which are weighed closely in worth by Islam).

[Chewbacca]

http://answering-islam.org.uk/

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Muhammad/Jews/index.html

These links deserve a disclaimer- They are written and promoted by evangelical Christians, who admit the whole point of the site is too convert Muslims to Christianity. Using these as educational sources would be like visiting an Aethist site to learn about religion.

I recommend that anyone who wants to learn about Islam seek neutral, encyclopedic sources. Cross-reference!!! Read the Koran for yourself and visit a Mosque. Befriend Muslims and ask them what it all means. Go and fetch a Biography of Muhammed Ali or Malcom X. Or look here, a real Islam site:

http://www.dislam.org/womaninislam/humanrights.html

And yes, read what the enemies of Islam have to say about it, start with the links above. Read those links knowing the motives of the authors and hosts. At leasthave a truthful reference point from which to decide for yourself.

[ 07-10-2005, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Morgeruat]

As I've given advice before, go check out www.askimam.com as well, you can ask islamic scholars about questions you have with Islam, bear in mind you are more likely to get an HONEST answer if you pose as a muslim when asking.

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: http://answering-islam.org.uk/ http://answering-islam.org.uk/Muhammad/Jews/index.html These links deserve a disclaimer- They are written and promoted by evangelical Christians, who admit the whole point of the site is too convert Muslims to Christianity. Using these as educational sources would be like visiting an Aethist site to learn about religion.

That doesn't change their usefulness however, they examine historical events cited by islamic sources, puts them into context for the region and compares. As you said, cross reference, but don't discount a source altogether because of a bias. If the links above provoke questions, ask them, you may be surprised by the answer.

[ 07-11-2005, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

[Lanesra]

Up Yours!!!

[Lanesra]

Just wanted to post this, it's Ken Livingstones speech, made on thursay.


Livingstone's powerful and emotive speech condemns the terrorist attacks as 'cowardly' and praises Londoners for their calmness in coping with the tragedy.

This was a cowardly attack, which has resulted in injury and loss of life. Our thoughts are with everyone who has been injured, or lost loved ones. I want to thank the emergency services for the way they have responded.

Following the al-Qaeda attacks on September 11 in America we conducted a series of exercises in London in order to be prepared for just such an attack.

One of the exercises undertaken by the government, my office and the emergency and security services was based on the possibility of multiple explosions on the transport system during the Friday rush hour. The plan that came out of that exercise is being executed today, with remarkable efficiency and courage, and I praise those staff who are involved.

I’d like to thank Londoners for the calm way in which they have responded to this cowardly attack and echo the advice of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair - do everything possible to assist the police and take the advice of the police about getting home today.



I have no doubt whatsoever that this is a terrorist attack. We did hope in the first few minutes after hearing about the events on the Underground that it might simply be a maintenance tragedy.

That was not the case. I have been able to stay in touch through the very excellent communications that were established for the eventuality that I might be out of the city at the time of a terrorist attack and they have worked with remarkable effectiveness. I will be in continual contact until I am back in London.

I want to say one thing specifically to the world today. This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful.

It was not aimed at Presidents or Prime Ministers. It was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old.

It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever.

That isn’t an ideology, it isn’t even a perverted faith - it is just an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder and we know what the objective is.

They seek to divide Londoners. They seek to turn Londoners against each other. I said yesterday to the International Olympic Committee, that the city of London is the greatest in the world, because everybody lives side by side in harmony. Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack.



They will stand together in solidarity alongside those who have been injured and those who have been bereaved and that is why I’m proud to be the mayor of that city.

Finally, I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life.

I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous. But I know you fear that you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society and I can show you why you will fail.



In the days that follow look at our airports, look at our sea ports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential.

They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free, they come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves.

They flee you because you tell them how they should live. They don’t want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail.


And he wasn't wrong, on sunday 500,000 people lined the mall, to celebratre the 65th aniversary of the end of the 2nd war, a war fought so People like me can live the way we do today, i'll never give that up

[Aragorn1]

Here are some of the other notable speeches made:

The Queen:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...686903,00.html

The PM:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...685208,00.html