Was Ali over-rated?

[Sir Degrader]

Was "The Greatest" not really? I personally think so. He was ONE of the greatest, but pound for pound, Sugar Ray was better, and much less mentioned. In addition, even in the heavy weight division Marciano could probably beat him? What do you think IWers?

[Timber Loftis]

"I'm not the greatest, I'm the double greatest." -- Ali

If for attitude alone, Ali was the greatest.

[krunchyfrogg]

I never saw him box.

My dad says he was the greatest he ever saw.

[johnny]

You of all people should know that Rocky Balboa was the greatest fighter ever.

[Sir Degrader]

Oh yeah, Balboa would smoke Ali, just like he smoked Clubber the first time.

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

He was the greatest 'cos he beat you with his mind, not his hands. He would get hit and smile at his apponant. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Albromor]

Variol has really hit upon a truth here. Ali was a master at psychological warfare. Plus, he wasn't just a fighter (i.e. Mike Tyson), he was a true boxer. Put this combination together: psychological manipulator plus ability (artistic skill of the highest order) and Ali was a deadly opponent. Only Joe Louis could have beaten him on style and ability, and I think between the two draws would be commonplace. Though I think Marciano certainly could beat Ali. Hey, if you want to see absolutely superb boxing watch the first match between Ali and Smokin' Joe Frazier. Frazier won their first match.

[Sir Degrader]

Yeah, the Frazier war was quite something, can you imagine the furor the 3rd match would have caused back in the day 1-1 with a tiebreaker? oh boy. Anyway, I personally think Marciano could have beat Ali, his "Rope a Dope" style would have led to absolutely horrific damage to his body (worse then Foreman).

[Cerek]

Ali WAS the Greatest!

Marciano might have been able to take the punishment Ali dished out, but Ali would have eaten Sugar Ray for breakfast. He had the speed of Sugar Ray with the power of a heavyweight. If Sugar Ray had moved up in weight clase, he would have LOST some of his speed and Ali wouldv'e danced circles around him.

I admit that I didn't like Ali when I was kid. I thought he was crass and arrogant and I hoped EVERY person he fought would be the one to finally shut his mouth for good. The problem was that Ali could back up his talk. His manager and trainer did NOT want him to fight George Foreman, because Foreman WAS the real life version of Clubber Lang. He was a brawler, pure and simple, and depended on his knockout power to win fights. Same thing with Tyson. Ali would have made Tyson look like an even bigger idiot than he really is. When he fought Foreman, Ali introduced his infamous "Rope-A-Dope" technique. He simply covered himself, lay back on the ropes, and let Foreman wear himself out beating on his arms (which didn't score any points for Foreman). Then, between the 6th and 7th round, Ali turned to his trainer and said "I'm gonna knock him out this round"....and he did.

Ali's breakthrough fight was against Sonny Liston, another huge bruiser. NOBODY thought this skinny (by comparison) little kid from the Olympics stood a chance against the veteran champ. But Ali had a game plan. He started talking about how he was gonna WHUP Sonny Liston in the ring. Looking back, it could be well argued that Ali invented the art of "trash talking". He went on and on about how pretty he was, how great he was, and how bad he was gonna beat Liston. Sonny just laughed it off at first, but the trash talk eventually got to him and Ali's seemingly unshakeable confidence made Liston actually wonder if the kid just might be able to beat him for real. Of course, shaking Liston's own confidence was Ali's plan all along. And the longer Ali lasted in the fight, the more Liston began to doubt his chance to win. He had expected (and TRIED) to knock Ali out before the 5th round, but Ali was able to take the damage and keep on coming. Finally, it was Liston who was unable to answer the bell (in the 8th or 9th round, IIRC).

The bottom line is that - in his prime - NOBODY had the combination of hand speed, endurance and sheer power that Ali did. He worked out relentlessly and he turned boxing into a "sweet science". He studied his opponents like a football coach studies films of the opposing team. He looked for weaknesses, then developed a strategy to exploit them.

Sugar Ray was fast and strong, but Ali was just as fast, even though he was much bigger. Pound for pound, Ali would danced around until Sugar Ray ran out of steam, then he would have pounded him to the canvas.

George Foreman and Mike Tyson were sheer bruisers. Like Richard Pryor once said "George Foreman has a unique boxing style...NONE. He just asks his trainer Which one's the referee..cause I'm gonna KILL the other guy" It was said in humor, but there was a lot of truth to it too.

Frazier was the ONLY boxer that seemed to have Ali's number. They fought 3 times and all 3 fights were brutal on both fighters. Frazier got his jaw broken early in one of the fights, but continued fighting till the last round anyway. He was one of the FEW fighters that could take a solid punch from Ali and still keep coming. Ali was MUCH stronger than he looked. He also developed a habit of punching the other guy while he was moving away from him. The other boxer would typically drop his guard to go after Ali, only to catch a bone-jarring jab or hook when he least expected it. That was one of the things that made him so dangerous. He had the power to knock his opponent out, even when he was backing up.

Frazier could stand the punishment, and Marciano might have been able to take it too, but Ali STILL beat Frazier 2 out of 3 times, and he would have found a way to beat the real life Rocky too.

Was Ali really the Greatest??? Absolutely. No doubt about it.

[VulcanRider]

I pretty much agree with Cerek that Ali was the best. I was able to find *this* description of a computer simulation done in 1967 to determine the all-time heavyweight champion boxer of the world. A panel of boxing experts decided on 16 fighters, and rated each one in 58 different categories. Then they ran an elimination tournament. The final match came down to Ali vs. Rocky Marciano. Winner by KO in the 13th was ... aaah, I'm gonna make you go read it for yourselves.

Anybody know of a more recent tournament like this?

EDIT: oops. Gotta confess I read the intro to that site then skipped ahead to the ending. Rereading the full description showed Ali taken out early. Apparently Ali complained about it so they worked up a match with Marciano, who'd won the tourny. THAT was the 13th round knockout...

[ 03-11-2005, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: VulcanRider ]