A Look into Atheism.

[Gangrell]

Well, this could be a relatively odd place to post considering it looks like I'm the only guy that believes in God on this thread.

I believe there is a place in the after life, I'm not sure about there being an eternal damnation because that seems a bit harsh to me. But my actions, my behavior, and my beliefs aren't influenced weither I believe in God or not, it's simply the way I am, it's the way I was brought up by my parents. Why do I believe in a higher power? I'm not sure, I just do. I don't have problems with people who are athiests, they can believe in what they wish, it's none of my business.

What do I believe? Yes I do believe there is a God, but as the afterlife goes, I don't know. There is recorded evidence of voices in the grave where a woman cries out because she is trapped in the darkness with another soul, and he says there is no way out. Is this hell or simply another dimension, who knows.

As far as "arrogance" goes for people believing in a being in which they have never seen, it dates back to the Bible. Yes, I do believe many of the stories are far fetched, but I do believe a few things in it, such as Jesus for one. But people look to it and it gives them faith, so they can pray and have a miracle bestowed onto them, a faith where there is a being that can maintain their lives, to give them food, water, and nature's produce.

Make no mistake, morales are not souly based on the foundation of relegion, it is the outlook and viewpoints of a person sense they were born. It has been with them since they have grown from their childhoods with relegion or not. I have good morales not mainly on relegion, but because I'm not as ignorant as others of my generation are around here.

Think of this though, as far as this belief goes weither it seperates us from the animals or not, ponder on this. A scientist believes in the theory of evolution, yet the same scientist is convinced that only men contain souls, an energy field that surrounds a foot outside the human body. But tell me this, apes are also animals, but if they are able to contain souls why not every other animal? Simply becaused we had the basis of evolution? This would mean that given a chance, any species could evolve and obtain an intelligence, so does this mean that only to have a soul you have to be aware that you're alive?

Bah, I've gone cross eyed... That's enough for one day, I must be off to my pillows, night Ironworks.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Gangrell: Think of this though, as far as this belief goes weither it seperates us from the animals or not, ponder on this. A scientist believes in the theory of evolution, yet the same scientist is convinced that only men contain souls, an energy field that surrounds a foot outside the human body. But tell me this, apes are also animals, but if they are able to contain souls why not every other animal? Simply becaused we had the basis of evolution? This would mean that given a chance, any species could evolve and obtain an intelligence, so does this mean that only to have a soul you have to be aware that you're alive?

I'm not sure which 'scientist' you're talking about, nor am I sure about what 'we' having the basis of evolution refers to either, but i do believe you are absolutely correct on your hypothesis that any organism can evolve an 'intelligence'. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Think of life, all life, every tree, mushroom, bactrium, fish and human as a giant ball of malleable putty. This putty morphs and shifts to fit the mold that it is placed into, terraforming it's features to suit the environment. This happens over billions of years, a concept that many single-generation thinking organisms such as homo sapiens find hard to accept and comprehend. There is no end to this process, not until all life is extinguished and reproductive reformation ceases. Nor is it easy (or perhaps even possible) to pinpoint a beginning to it.

Additionally, on the surface it would seem that here is no real 'point' to this process, but that may indeed be an illusion, as indeed may be life itself. One thing that I have convinced myself is that separating life into segregated subsets of 'beings' is a huge mistake, as the phenomena of life is itself one gigantic cyclic organism, feeding off anf nurturing itself as it sucks up it's universe's nutrients like a sponge.

Also, in my/our not-so-humble opinion restricting the process of thought and question in order to fit a social programme of acceptable behaviour is utterly foolish, and a method of self-slavery, as it is this questioning that sets the consciousness on the path of unravelling the fabric of the garment that is existence itself. Self-destruction is the only path to enlightenment, at least in our eyes.

[ 09-10-2003, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Gabrielles blades]

Belief...
The very first religions were probably made to provide bored people with a balm for their fears or boredom.

Religions as they exist throughout history have been used as devices to maintain control over a population.

Governing bodies often incorperate the majority of the populations religious beliefs as law since it is easier to control a population where the law and a societies belief in what is right coincide.

As for morality, there is no innate morality, it must be taught. to be more specific, it all relates to perspective. An 'evil' person (evil as determined by our modern interpretation as of not following the law of the land) would probably find that a 'good' person was in his opinion evil. Both would be correct in considering the other to be evil since it is all a matter of perspective. So in a society we might consider evil, they would find us to be evil. The people living there would have an entirely different 'moral' code that they would live and die by, all believing themselves to be in the right. A few years back iraq vs the US would have been a good example of this (but now the evi err i mean the good guys killed the 'bad' guys so well see what happens in the aftermath)

I myself am finding that the 'good' is oftentimes just as 'bad' as the 'evil' is. For example, have you noticed how completely absurd and utterly restrictive and horrid our laws have become? For example, it is the LAW that a restaurant has to have its menu/pricing structure in view of people before they are seated/when they outside etc (not sure on the exact specifics). But anyhow, this is to save people from embarassment! they made a law to save people from embarassment of being seated and not being able to afford to dine there, its just absurd! i mean, sure it is 'nice' to know before your seated if you can afford to eat there, but it shouldnt be a law that you should know. Theres plenty of other laws which are equally absurd which are naturally probably proposed by the 'good' people.

Some minor thoughts...
would the world be a better place without humans? that is to say, is the human race in of itself an evil race that thinks of itself as good? there is no doubt enormous evidence of mass extinctions of species and destruction of the environment that could lay such a claim.

P.S. im not so sure there is a biological imperative that helps to prevent murdur of ones species, there are far too many conflicts and/or crimes which seem to present the case that humans like to fight amonst themselves.

P.S.S. religion doesnt have to be based on a god/gods, i forget which but one of the asian ones is based on a human i think.

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Azred: quote: Originally posted by Azimaith: Second, life does not teach you whats right and wrong, it teaches you neutral facts which become right and wrong dependant on your learning of morals either directly from religion or people who took it from religion. Well then, you won't mind if I and some friends of mine hold you down and take all your money would you? It would simply be a neutral fact that we took your money, neither right nor wrong. [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img] In natural law if I can't defend myself against ya then yes, it wouldn't be wrong, however, it doesn't mean I couldn't strangle you while you were sleeping and get it back. That has nothing to do with right or wrong, naturally I wouldn't like it but liking something has nothing to do with right or wrong either. That was a dumb response. If I were never to meet a single human in my entire life and I killed a person, I wouldn't think of it as "wrong" it just did what I felt like doing, life has no innate morality. This is true...for 1-year-olds. Doesn't compassion or thinking about the welfare of others matter anywhere? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

[/QUOTE]Why should I worry about others if I don't know what the hell others are, if I never saw a human before I wouldn't give a crap about compassion or welfare, you intrude on my territory, I chase you off, you refuse to be chased off and I will fight till the battle turns against me or I kill them. Compassion and thought for others develops with society, not intrinsicly. Whats the point of saying this?

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Gangrell: What do I believe? Yes I do believe there is a God, but as the afterlife goes, I don't know. There is recorded evidence of voices in the grave where a woman cries out because she is trapped in the darkness with another soul, and he says there is no way out. Is this hell or simply another dimension, who knows. It could be fake, I've heard of far more convincing things that could be considered fake as well. I actually saw that show on the discovery channel, I don't usually believe those claims not to mention there are also claims by ghost hunting clubs that tell you what you will hear before you hear the actual tape. Make no mistake, morales are not souly based on the foundation of relegion, it is the outlook and viewpoints of a person sense they were born. It has been with them since they have grown from their childhoods with relegion or not. I have good morales not mainly on relegion, but because I'm not as ignorant as others of my generation are around here.

You are saying here that morals are intrinsic in humans? What do you do to explain sociopaths?

Not as ignorant? I don't quite catch your meaning, I am wondering however, why you are spelling religion with an e, solely as souly, and morals as morale...

[Faceman]

@Azimaith

Still there is a hesitance to deliberately kill one of your own kind for petty reasons. Wolves for example in a fight present their neck to the opponent to signalise their surrender. It usually is accepted. I do not say that all animals will protect each other and NEVER kill one of their own kind. But there better be good reasons (power struggle) or a lot of emotion involved because they won't do so for "fun" or to ensure something small.

@Gabrielle

The very first religions were made to explain the unexplainable (i.e thunder, fire, sun,...) In that way natural science is no more than religion because either you believe in the "Big Bang" or you don't. It can't be proved. Scientists however differ from priests because they concede that there is a chance they might be wrong.

Religions over history have been used to teach people...not always the right things. They have certainly been abused for power gaining and keeping.

Many things can nowadays be put into perspective but there are some basic things (like love for your mother) which are innate or at least obtained during a period where society has no direct influence on you (i.e. you can't be taught because you can't comprehend; you can only be influenced)

Laws are there to make society function better and more nicely. There are a lot of ridicolous laws and some of them shouldn't be laws but mere courtesy but the public often is like a small child. Of course it should be natural to say thanks/apologize for mistakes/... but if your kid doesn't do it you have to teach him/her and compell him/her to just to make him/her function better in society.

Humans fight among themselves because their rational side overrides their instincts (crime) or because emotions based on taught values take over (rage). Once the killing has begun however humans like it for the taste of power (a concept which they couldn't instinctively grab) and therefore condition themselves (and their instincts) to let it happen again.

You may be referring to Buddhism which is based on a human prophet/avatar (Buddha) like Islam (Mohammed), Christianity (Jesus), Judaism (Moses, Jesaja, Jeremiah, Josua, ...). The difference is that Buddhism has no god but speaks of an entity that is all and which we will become a part of after we have achieved redemption on earth. It's more abstract but it's based on the same grounds as any other religion. It's also similar to hinduistic Illusionism which basically states that the whole world is an illusion and that we become redeemed if we manage to see through it (VERY original idea Wachowskis )

[Azimaith]

Originally posted by Gabrielles blades: Some minor thoughts... would the world be a better place without humans? that is to say, is the human race in of itself an evil race that thinks of itself as good? there is no doubt enormous evidence of mass extinctions of species and destruction of the environment that could lay such a claim.

You would have to assume morality is intrinsic, a concept that finds little if any support in nature. Truth is, you would need a code of morality that was a property, like I said, morality would have to be like gravity, there whether you believe it or not, whose to even say whats evil any more?


Your speaking of Buddhism, many don't consider it a religion but rather a philosophy to live by, in dictionary terms it does have to be based around the worship of deities.

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Azimaith: You are saying here that morals are intrinsic in humans? What do you do you explain sociopaths?

With society These are people who can't adapt to society and drive themselves mad accordingly.
Also if I had never seen another human before and one intruded on my territory I'd be curious rather than homicidal because I think that curiosity is an innate human ability which comes with our large brain.

[IAmThumper]

I have a lot of opinions/ideas on this subject. Unfortunately(err maybe fortunately) they don't appear to mesh very well to anyone else but myself so I'll just write the most understandable.

I think religion is the cause of most of the problems in the world today. More people have died and/or been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason save maybe desease.

I think of religion(s) kind of like a road(s) that stretch off in two directions. In one direction is "god" and then other direction is atheism. People walk this road but being an atheist is still being on that road. I don't believe in god and I don't care about being an atheist. I simply want off the darn road!
Another way to look at (my personal fav) is religion is like telling someone not to think about pink elephants. No matter what you end of thinking about pink elephants. I don't want to waste my time thinking about pink elephants! (LOL)
The problem is people force you to be on the road. I mean try not to think about pink elephants in a room filled with people screaming about pink elephants.
The only way off the road is if everyone decides to get off of it with you.
I'm sure that made a lot more sense to me than it did you you.

I'm a good person. I don't lie, cheat, steal, rape, murder, etc. If there is a god and he/she/it is going to condemn me to hell simply because I don't pray or believe then quite frankly I wouldn't pray to him/her/it anyway.
I'm walking my own path and if there is a god I can only hope that my path leads to him/her/it. I could ponder the existence of god till the day I die and never be certain or I can just live my life the best I can.

[Faceman]

You just described agnosticism: "I don't care if there is a god because thinking about if or not does not make sense or lead to a satisfactory result"

Contradicting you however I think that Atheism is the cause of a lot more problems today. Many people use religion as an anchor in life and succed in doing so. However nowadays many people who would be better off with religion are talked into Atheism/Agnosticism and can't handle it losing their grip.
I sometimes envy people who believe but I do not and sadly this isn't my choice to make (you can't turn belief on/off, you either do or don't). Opposing to many people I don't think the fact that religion makes life simpler sometimes is necessarily bad.

[ 09-10-2003, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Faceman ]