Olympic Pairs Figure Skating (sorry I need to vent) - Page 7

Pangur Ban · 02-15-2002, 03:19 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:

When I personally think of a sport, I'm thinking about figuring out who's best in a verifiable way. You can't verify whether a figure skating team is the best or not, that's completely subjective. There are no finish lines, goals or directly verifiable competition elements whatsoever...

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

A few comments on *verifiable* ...

A bit of history now ...
Figure skating competitions used to be verifiable, and this was the most important part of skating !!

An ice skating "figure" was a specified pattern ( known as a "tracing" ) left in the ice by the blade. The most classic figure was a circle in the ice. The next "figure" was a figure of eight. From there, figures gained dramatically in complexity. By utilizing supreme balance, poise, and by executing a precise series of turns, a skate could draw a figure on the ice of amazing complexity, looking like calligraphy patterns ...

These were hard enough perform by themselves, but a skater was required to repeat the same figure three times superimposed over each other with such accuracy that only one tracing was visible on the ice!!

A comparison. Rollerbladers, could you skate on one leg in a circle of 3 meters in diameter, and then repeat it twice so each circle was directly over the other?

Classical figure skating competitions were slow moving events. Judges would get out on the ice, and use a large wooden compass to measure the "roundness" of circles, and get down on their hands and knees with a ruler to measure differences in the tracings between the repetitions.

Figure skating competitions had two parts. The first, where they had to perform classic figures, and the second, where they could skate to music and perform programs. The figure part of the competition was orginally worth 70% (!!) of the total marks a skater would receive.

Over the years, more emphasis began to be paid to the skating programs. With the development of new jumps, and spins, and with glittery costumes, it was a lot more entertaining for non skaters to watch. Skating was now gaining popularity as a spectator sport. The marks awarded for each part of the competition began to change in favour of the "progams". From 70%, the "figures" value was then 50%, then only 30%, then finally that part of the competition was dropped altogether. Most ice skaters, not needing to do figures in competitions, stopped learning them. Now the only thing left of classic figures are drawings in old skating books, a rapidly dwindling number of people who can actually do them, and the word "figure" in figure skating.

Returning to your point about *verifiable*. Many current sports contain an artistic element of marking, including gymnastics, diving, ski jumping, even snow board half-pipe. If you apply your criteria to these as well, would you be happy that these would also no longer be *sports* ?

Skating competions are already half *verifiable*. That, of course, is the technical score.

I suppose you could just get skaters out on the ice and say "Peform a triple axel" (pass) "Perform a combination spin" (pass) "Perform a
quad toe loop" *skater falls on butt* (fail), and judge it that way, if you wanted a fully varifiable sport. But it wouldn't be anywhere near as satisfying, either for the skaters, or for the audience ..

Pang [img]graemlins/cat3.gif[/img]

Pangur Ban · 02-15-2002, 03:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:

I agree. But why would Pangur look upon an "art" categorization as something bad?

I don't. I hope I didn't give the impression that I did. The art of ice skating, for me, is both beautiful to watch, and to perform.

What I didn't agree with was the idea that the *art* was the most important thing about skating. The *art* is second, and only comes after long and very hard work in mastering technical skills. As a skater, I would like people to appreciate that as well.

Pang [img]graemlins/cat3.gif[/img]

Grojlach · 02-15-2002, 07:01 AM

Whoa, calm down Pang, no need to shout (if you have a point, it will come over as a little more gentlemen-like if you don't post in bold or use exclamation marks. Just a stylistic comment

).
You can't dismiss the fact that figure skating is too dependable on jury judgement, else we wouldn't even be having this entire discussion in the first place, now would we?

But you're probably right about one thing:

quote:
Figure skating competitions used to be verifiable, and this was the most important part of skating!

The key here is clearly "used to be". I think you're absolutely right that with the increased media attention, the judgement became more and more subjective. And as much as one would hate it, we're at a point that even presentation and attitude would matter. Is that fair, does that have anything to do with sports? Of course not.

To bring up those other examples:
Ski-Jumping has a large verifiable element that's the most important thing of the entire sport: distance. I've been following ski-jumping for almost 10 years now and the jury judgement mostly only matters to distinguish two jumpers with the same or almost the same distance; the only way one could really lose a rank he should have deserved because of distance is by jumping and/or landing really messy.

But presentation, attitude, clothing, music etc has no part of the jury verdict whatsoever.
Gymnastics is today what Figure Skating used to be; practically all possible exercises are written down, points accompanying certain performances are set and the subjective part is not that big anymore. If today the American media circus discovers gymnastics as the new flavour of the month, we'll probably be having similar problems with "unfair" judgements in 2 or 6 years from now. But at this moment, the verifiable elements are waterproof enough to avoid the ridiculous chaos that happened with Figure Skating.

As for diving, I can't say I follow it for one bit so I can't explain whether it would be a sport under my definition of it or not; but I think it's similar to the situation with Gymnastics at the moment.

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

norompanlasolas · 02-15-2002, 07:32 AM

personally, i like sports that dont depend on a jury calling out the winner. it just seems that if there are jurys to select the winner its not that impartial and prone to corruption (look at boxing). football (soccer for my american friends), basket, rugby, etc... are great examples of sports that the winner will be the best, luckier, more in form, whatever. referees might get things wrong but they can never affect the outcome as in the other sports.

on a side note, i believe football is the greatest sports on earth. the most popular, the one played in most countries, the most simple and most complex at the same time, and the most exciting overall. the world cup must be the most exciting sports event in the world (even more than the olympics, imo).

or in the words of a popular commentator for espn at the start of a big game... "welcome to 90 minutes of the greatest sport on earth".

*\Conan/* · 02-15-2002, 01:41 PM

Gold for the Canadian couple...!!!! Yea!!

Fast Hands · 02-15-2002, 04:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by *\Conan/*:
Gold for the Canadian couple...!!!! Yea!!

And the French judge has been found guilty of "misconduct". The ISU indefinitely suspended French judge Marie-Reine Le Gougne after she said she had been “submitted to a certain pressure” from her federation and she has signed a statement about how she reached her vote.
The investigation will continue though...it will be interesting to see if the ice dancing results will be fixed tonight.
Sale and Pelletier are set to be presented with the gold medal on Thursday, before the start of the women’s long program.

I think this was a good compromise, but the sport definitely needs some readjustments.

Pangur Ban · 02-16-2002, 03:39 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:
Whoa, calm down Pang, no need to shout (if you have a point, it will come over as a little more gentlemen-like if you don't post in bold or use exclamation marks. Just a stylistic comment ).
You can't dismiss the fact that figure skating is too dependable on jury judgement, else we wouldn't even be having this entire discussion in the first place, now would we? But you're probably right about one thing:

The key here is clearly "used to be". I think you're absolutely right that with the increased media attention, the judgement became more and more subjective. And as much as one would hate it, we're at a point that even presentation and attitude would matter. Is that fair, does that have anything to do with sports? Of course not.

To bring up those other examples:
Ski-Jumping has a large verifiable element that's the most important thing of the entire sport: distance. I've been following ski-jumping for almost 10 years now and the jury judgement mostly only matters to distinguish two jumpers with the same or almost the same distance; the only way one could really lose a rank he should have deserved because of distance is by jumping and/or landing really messy. But presentation, attitude, clothing, music etc has no part of the jury verdict whatsoever.
Gymnastics is today what Figure Skating used to be; practically all possible exercises are written down, points accompanying certain performances are set and the subjective part is not that big anymore. If today the American media circus discovers gymnastics as the new flavour of the month, we'll probably be having similar problems with "unfair" judgements in 2 or 6 years from now. But at this moment, the verifiable elements are waterproof enough to avoid the ridiculous chaos that happened with Figure Skating.
As for diving, I can't say I follow it for one bit so I can't explain whether it would be a sport under my definition of it or not; but I think it's similar to the situation with Gymnastics at the moment.

[ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Errr, Grojlach, I didn't mean for my post to "shout", the bold and !!'s were meant to be a heading - and I tend to litter my posts with !!' s anyway. Sorry if implied otherwise ... [img]graemlins/nicekitty.gif[/img]

---------------------

My dictionary gave the definition for sport as "an activity pursued for exercise or pleasure, usually involving physical prowess .."

I was slightly surprised by this, as competition was not mentioned at all as a requirement for a sport. ( Then again, I can't think of a single sport for which competitions don't occur! )

You are correct when you mention that presentation and attitude have nothing to with sports. They are only used, rightly or wrongly, as criteria to compare people performing some sports. A subtle difference, but I think an important one.

The issue, as I see it, is not whether ice skating is a sport, but how you run a competition for a sport if subjective judging is used to determine the outcome.

As you say, some sports where subjective judging is used are more "waterproof" than others. I have to agree that figure skating isn't one of them. I don't think there is much that can be done it about it. There has been judging manipulation for skating at all levels of competition. At local competitions, I have heard of promising young skaters given higher marks to encourage them to complete more, and female skaters whom judges consider to be too overweight to become the 'dainty and delicate' image that people expect, being given lower marks to encourage them to give up skating.

Just because judging for figure skating may be subjective at best, and unjust at worst, remember it is not the fault of the skaters themselves. They chose to be skaters through the love of skating.

I've been getting teased about this issue all week at work. It's hard enough to have my pastime-of-choice taken seriously by workmates whose primary interests are football, beer, and cars, as it is, without this sort of mess.

Pang [img]graemlins/cat3.gif[/img]

P.S. I'm enjoying this discussion - it's not often I get to debate ice skating, and on the ice skating forums they take things waaaay too seriously for my liking.

skywalker · 02-16-2002, 07:06 AM

If this has already been said sorry,but..

I think the Canadian skaters were given gold medals after the fact to hush this whole scandal up. Now I'm not saying it is to shut up the skaters, but I believe it is to shut up everyone else. The Olympic Committee is trying to cover it's own @$$ and get the focus back on the games. They have sacrificed the French judge even though 4 others gave the Russian skaters better marks. The whole thing is pretty sick.

I think if I was one of the Canadian skaters, I would only accept a gold medal if the Russian skaters gave theirs up because they just didn't skate as well.

Life is not fair, why should we think the Olympics are any different? It's all politics, that's why I don't watch them.

Mark

Oh and Pangur Ban, excellent description about what figure skating WAS all about! (I knew you weren't shouting, too!)

Ronn_Bman · 02-16-2002, 03:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by skywalker:
They have sacrificed the French judge even though 4 others gave the Russian skaters better marks.

I do agree the whole thing is pretty sick, but not that the French judge was sacrificed. She has formally admitted to misconduct. It doesn't matter that others voted for the Russians over the Canadians (people can boo and hiss over that if they want), but it matters that she planned to do it before she saw the programs.

[ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Lord of Alcohol · 02-16-2002, 04:16 PM

JohnBoy and Billy SUCK!!!!!!!! Just had to say it [img]smile.gif[/img]

02-15-2002, 03:19 AM	#61
Pangur Ban Avatar Join Date: June 3, 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 64 Posts: 569	quote: Originally posted by Grojlach: When I personally think of a sport, I'm thinking about figuring out who's best in a verifiable way. You can't verify whether a figure skating team is the best or not, that's completely subjective. There are no finish lines, goals or directly verifiable competition elements whatsoever... [ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Grojlach ] A few comments on verifiable ... A bit of history now ... Figure skating competitions used to be verifiable, and this was the most important part of skating !! An ice skating "figure" was a specified pattern ( known as a "tracing" ) left in the ice by the blade. The most classic figure was a circle in the ice. The next "figure" was a figure of eight. From there, figures gained dramatically in complexity. By utilizing supreme balance, poise, and by executing a precise series of turns, a skate could draw a figure on the ice of amazing complexity, looking like calligraphy patterns ... These were hard enough perform by themselves, but a skater was required to repeat the same figure three times superimposed over each other with such accuracy that only one tracing was visible on the ice!! A comparison. Rollerbladers, could you skate on one leg in a circle of 3 meters in diameter, and then repeat it twice so each circle was directly over the other? Classical figure skating competitions were slow moving events. Judges would get out on the ice, and use a large wooden compass to measure the "roundness" of circles, and get down on their hands and knees with a ruler to measure differences in the tracings between the repetitions. Figure skating competitions had two parts. The first, where they had to perform classic figures, and the second, where they could skate to music and perform programs. The figure part of the competition was orginally worth 70% (!!) of the total marks a skater would receive. Over the years, more emphasis began to be paid to the skating programs. With the development of new jumps, and spins, and with glittery costumes, it was a lot more entertaining for non skaters to watch. Skating was now gaining popularity as a spectator sport. The marks awarded for each part of the competition began to change in favour of the "progams". From 70%, the "figures" value was then 50%, then only 30%, then finally that part of the competition was dropped altogether. Most ice skaters, not needing to do figures in competitions, stopped learning them. Now the only thing left of classic figures are drawings in old skating books, a rapidly dwindling number of people who can actually do them, and the word "figure" in figure skating. Returning to your point about verifiable. Many current sports contain an artistic element of marking, including gymnastics, diving, ski jumping, even snow board half-pipe. If you apply your criteria to these as well, would you be happy that these would also no longer be sports ? Skating competions are already half verifiable. That, of course, is the technical score. I suppose you could just get skaters out on the ice and say "Peform a triple axel" (pass) "Perform a combination spin" (pass) "Perform a quad toe loop" skater falls on butt (fail), and judge it that way, if you wanted a fully varifiable sport. But it wouldn't be anywhere near as satisfying, either for the skaters, or for the audience .. Pang [img]graemlins/cat3.gif[/img] __________________ Not enough time to care ....

02-15-2002, 03:26 AM	#62
Pangur Ban Avatar Join Date: June 3, 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 64 Posts: 569	quote: Originally posted by Grojlach: I agree. But why would Pangur look upon an "art" categorization as something bad? I don't. I hope I didn't give the impression that I did. The art of ice skating, for me, is both beautiful to watch, and to perform. What I didn't agree with was the idea that the art was the most important thing about skating. The art is second, and only comes after long and very hard work in mastering technical skills. As a skater, I would like people to appreciate that as well. Pang [img]graemlins/cat3.gif[/img]

02-15-2002, 07:01 AM	#63
Grojlach Zartan Join Date: May 2, 2001 Location: Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum Age: 43 Posts: 5,281	Whoa, calm down Pang, no need to shout (if you have a point, it will come over as a little more gentlemen-like if you don't post in bold or use exclamation marks. Just a stylistic comment ). You can't dismiss the fact that figure skating is too dependable on jury judgement, else we wouldn't even be having this entire discussion in the first place, now would we? But you're probably right about one thing: quote: Figure skating competitions used to be verifiable, and this was the most important part of skating! The key here is clearly "used to be". I think you're absolutely right that with the increased media attention, the judgement became more and more subjective. And as much as one would hate it, we're at a point that even presentation and attitude would matter. Is that fair, does that have anything to do with sports? Of course not. To bring up those other examples: Ski-Jumping has a large verifiable element that's the most important thing of the entire sport: distance. I've been following ski-jumping for almost 10 years now and the jury judgement mostly only matters to distinguish two jumpers with the same or almost the same distance; the only way one could really lose a rank he should have deserved because of distance is by jumping and/or landing really messy. But presentation, attitude, clothing, music etc has no part of the jury verdict whatsoever. Gymnastics is today what Figure Skating used to be; practically all possible exercises are written down, points accompanying certain performances are set and the subjective part is not that big anymore. If today the American media circus discovers gymnastics as the new flavour of the month, we'll probably be having similar problems with "unfair" judgements in 2 or 6 years from now. But at this moment, the verifiable elements are waterproof enough to avoid the ridiculous chaos that happened with Figure Skating. As for diving, I can't say I follow it for one bit so I can't explain whether it would be a sport under my definition of it or not; but I think it's similar to the situation with Gymnastics at the moment. [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: Grojlach ] __________________ [url]\"http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/Grobbel/\" target=\"_blank\"> [img]\"http://www.denness.net/rpi/username/Grobbel\" alt=\" - \" /></a>

02-15-2002, 07:32 AM	#64
norompanlasolas Avatar Join Date: November 13, 2001 Location: madrid, spain... made in argentina Age: 47 Posts: 569	personally, i like sports that dont depend on a jury calling out the winner. it just seems that if there are jurys to select the winner its not that impartial and prone to corruption (look at boxing). football (soccer for my american friends), basket, rugby, etc... are great examples of sports that the winner will be the best, luckier, more in form, whatever. referees might get things wrong but they can never affect the outcome as in the other sports. on a side note, i believe football is the greatest sports on earth. the most popular, the one played in most countries, the most simple and most complex at the same time, and the most exciting overall. the world cup must be the most exciting sports event in the world (even more than the olympics, imo). or in the words of a popular commentator for espn at the start of a big game... "welcome to 90 minutes of the greatest sport on earth". __________________ no

02-15-2002, 01:41 PM	#65
\Conan/ Red Dragon Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Virginia, USA Age: 62 Posts: 1,512	Gold for the Canadian couple...!!!! Yea!! __________________ \\Conan/
$\Conan/ is offline$

02-15-2002, 04:59 PM	#66
Fast Hands Dungeon Master Join Date: September 1, 2001 Location: Nebraska USA Age: 39 Posts: 98	quote: Originally posted by \Conan/: Gold for the Canadian couple...!!!! Yea!! And the French judge has been found guilty of "misconduct". The ISU indefinitely suspended French judge Marie-Reine Le Gougne after she said she had been “submitted to a certain pressure” from her federation and she has signed a statement about how she reached her vote. The investigation will continue though...it will be interesting to see if the ice dancing results will be fixed tonight. Sale and Pelletier are set to be presented with the gold medal on Thursday, before the start of the women’s long program. I think this was a good compromise, but the sport definitely needs some readjustments. __________________ <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[merlin]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/merlin.gif\" /> <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[laugh3]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/laugh3.gif\" /> [url]\"http://www.lotrhumorzone.tk\" target=\"_blank\">Lord of the Rings Humor Zone</a> <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[happypc]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/happypc.gif\" /> <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[beigesmilewinkgrin]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif\" />

02-16-2002, 03:39 AM	#67
Pangur Ban Avatar Join Date: June 3, 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 64 Posts: 569	quote: Originally posted by Grojlach: Whoa, calm down Pang, no need to shout (if you have a point, it will come over as a little more gentlemen-like if you don't post in bold or use exclamation marks. Just a stylistic comment ). You can't dismiss the fact that figure skating is too dependable on jury judgement, else we wouldn't even be having this entire discussion in the first place, now would we? But you're probably right about one thing: The key here is clearly "used to be". I think you're absolutely right that with the increased media attention, the judgement became more and more subjective. And as much as one would hate it, we're at a point that even presentation and attitude would matter. Is that fair, does that have anything to do with sports? Of course not. To bring up those other examples: Ski-Jumping has a large verifiable element that's the most important thing of the entire sport: distance. I've been following ski-jumping for almost 10 years now and the jury judgement mostly only matters to distinguish two jumpers with the same or almost the same distance; the only way one could really lose a rank he should have deserved because of distance is by jumping and/or landing really messy. But presentation, attitude, clothing, music etc has no part of the jury verdict whatsoever. Gymnastics is today what Figure Skating used to be; practically all possible exercises are written down, points accompanying certain performances are set and the subjective part is not that big anymore. If today the American media circus discovers gymnastics as the new flavour of the month, we'll probably be having similar problems with "unfair" judgements in 2 or 6 years from now. But at this moment, the verifiable elements are waterproof enough to avoid the ridiculous chaos that happened with Figure Skating. As for diving, I can't say I follow it for one bit so I can't explain whether it would be a sport under my definition of it or not; but I think it's similar to the situation with Gymnastics at the moment. [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: Grojlach ] Errr, Grojlach, I didn't mean for my post to "shout", the bold and !!'s were meant to be a heading - and I tend to litter my posts with !!' s anyway. Sorry if implied otherwise ... [img]graemlins/nicekitty.gif[/img] --------------------- My dictionary gave the definition for sport as "an activity pursued for exercise or pleasure, usually involving physical prowess .." I was slightly surprised by this, as competition was not mentioned at all as a requirement for a sport. ( Then again, I can't think of a single sport for which competitions don't occur! ) You are correct when you mention that presentation and attitude have nothing to with sports. They are only used, rightly or wrongly, as criteria to compare people performing some sports. A subtle difference, but I think an important one. The issue, as I see it, is not whether ice skating is a sport, but how you run a competition for a sport if subjective judging is used to determine the outcome. As you say, some sports where subjective judging is used are more "waterproof" than others. I have to agree that figure skating isn't one of them. I don't think there is much that can be done it about it. There has been judging manipulation for skating at all levels of competition. At local competitions, I have heard of promising young skaters given higher marks to encourage them to complete more, and female skaters whom judges consider to be too overweight to become the 'dainty and delicate' image that people expect, being given lower marks to encourage them to give up skating. Just because judging for figure skating may be subjective at best, and unjust at worst, remember it is not the fault of the skaters themselves. They chose to be skaters through the love of skating. I've been getting teased about this issue all week at work. It's hard enough to have my pastime-of-choice taken seriously by workmates whose primary interests are football, beer, and cars, as it is, without this sort of mess. Pang [img]graemlins/cat3.gif[/img] P.S. I'm enjoying this discussion - it's not often I get to debate ice skating, and on the ice skating forums they take things waaaay too seriously for my liking.

02-16-2002, 07:06 AM	#68
skywalker Banned User Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: VT, USA Age: 63 Posts: 3,097	If this has already been said sorry,but.. I think the Canadian skaters were given gold medals after the fact to hush this whole scandal up. Now I'm not saying it is to shut up the skaters, but I believe it is to shut up everyone else. The Olympic Committee is trying to cover it's own @$$ and get the focus back on the games. They have sacrificed the French judge even though 4 others gave the Russian skaters better marks. The whole thing is pretty sick. I think if I was one of the Canadian skaters, I would only accept a gold medal if the Russian skaters gave theirs up because they just didn't skate as well. Life is not fair, why should we think the Olympics are any different? It's all politics, that's why I don't watch them. Mark Oh and Pangur Ban, excellent description about what figure skating WAS all about! (I knew you weren't shouting, too!)

02-16-2002, 03:52 PM	#69
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 57 Posts: 5,177	quote: Originally posted by skywalker: They have sacrificed the French judge even though 4 others gave the Russian skaters better marks. I do agree the whole thing is pretty sick, but not that the French judge was sacrificed. She has formally admitted to misconduct. It doesn't matter that others voted for the Russians over the Canadians (people can boo and hiss over that if they want), but it matters that she planned to do it before she saw the programs. [ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ] __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

02-16-2002, 04:16 PM	#70
Lord of Alcohol Xanathar Thieves Guild Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Charlotte,NC Age: 60 Posts: 4,570	JohnBoy and Billy SUCK!!!!!!!! Just had to say it [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ No

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