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[G3MM4]

Thanks for the advice.

How about this:

Human paladin 2 PP Longsword, 2 PP Bows
Dwarven fighter All PP Axe
Half-elf fighter - druid at level 10 5 PP Scimitar, 3 PP Sling
Human cleric PP/weapons?
Half-elf bard
Gnomish thief - illusionist at what level??? PP/weapons?

From what I've played so far, I can't see any need for a wizard spellcaster in the early levels - right up to The Vale of Shadows. I have more need of a thief, especially in The Vale of Shadows, where in the crypts etc there are traps.

So what do you think of the above party? Maybe give some more info on PP/weapons and when to MC the Gnome thief?

[ 10-26-2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: G3MM4 ]

[ZFR]

Originally posted by G3MM4: Thanks for the advice. How about this: Human paladin 2 PP Longsword, 2 PP Bows Dwarven fighter All PP Axe Half-elf fighter - druid at level 10 5 PP Scimitar, 3 PP Sling Human cleric PP/weapons? Half-elf bard Gnomish thief - illusionist at what level??? PP/weapons? From what I've played so far, I can't see any need for a wizard spellcaster in the early levels - right up to The Vale of Shadows. I have more need of a thief, especially in The Vale of Shadows, where in the crypts etc there are traps. So what do you think of the above party? Maybe give some more info on PP/weapons and when to MC the Gnome thief?

er... you got the MC wrong...

multiclassing can be done only by non-humans... both classes advance simultaneously and XP is split equally between them...

dual classing can only be done by humans... you stop advancing in one class and only advance in the second.

[G3MM4]

If I'm doing this as according to NobleNicks' recommendations then most of the party will have to be human, which I don't want, since I want the thief to be a gnome, and the fighter/druid to half-elf. So looks like I need make the thief a fighter/thief/illusionist, would that work? I'm stuck for ideas for the fighter/druid though.

[Naked Paladin]

@G3MM4:
Well, they are just as you said.. recommendations.
Multiclass fighters, if I am not mistaken, cannot go beyond specialized or 2 stars in weapon proficiencies (without using a tweak or mod pack), making dual class fighters far superior in fighting.

Multiclass characters get access to both classes abilities (ie- spells and thief skills while still being able to fight) while the dual class character has to wait. Also after dual classing, you don't have access to your previous class skills until you are one level higher in your current class than your previous class.

Here's my party that I'm currently playing with for a complete run of IWD/HoW/TotLM:

Human-Paladin: 2-Longswords, 2-Greatswords
Human-[DC]Fighter(9)/Rogue: 5-Longswords,2-Bows
Human-[DC]Fighter(9)/Mage: 5-Axes, 2-Bows
Human-[DC]Fighter(9)/Cleric: 5-Flails, 2-Missiles
Human-[DC]Fighter(13)/Druid: 5-Longswords, 3-Missiles
Human-Bard: Whatever weapons

Almost finished the IWD portion and I can say it has been pretty fun. Granted I didn't have a thief in the beginning but the traps and locks weren't nothing my fighters couldn't handle. Once I dual classed to the thief, leveling went really fast for her and she got her fighter skills back quickly making her a deadly backstabber. The bard definitely held up till the mage was ready to handle the heavier spells.

@NobleNick:
Why do you pick illusionist? I can't remember what the opposition school is off the top of my head. But you lose access to those spells in the opposite school for the benefit of one extra spell slot per spell level? If I were to pick a specialist, I would possibly pick Invoker for some heavy artillery fun or Conjurer for summoning up some cannon fodder. I'm just curious to your thoughts of picking illusionist.

[jmsteven]

Originally posted by Aerich: 5) Cleric - any race, but I prefer humans - it just seems more appropriate. A pure cleric (e.g. no multi- or dual-classing) is nice for the defensive spells, healing, and turn undead ability. [/QB]

I disagree about the pure cleric. Even if you want an all-out cleric, a better strategy is to start as a Ranger and then dual to a Cleric at level 2.

The benefits of doing this:

(1) Rangers will have the highest ability stats of any character class. It will be easier to get 18s in Str, Dex, Con & Wis, and still have good scores in Int & Cha.

(2) Rangers can get 18 + exceptional strength.

(3) Rangers, when not using a shield, get an extra attack each round.

(4) You can have two weapon proficiency slots (just be sure to pick cleric weapons like maces and slings).

(5) You'll get a hated-enemy, against which you'll get +4 to hit & damage.

(6) The Ranger/Cleric can access warrior-only items and potions, and ranger/rogue-only gear.

(7) Also, you'll have 8 extra HP early in the game.

All of this will cost you only 2,250 experience points!

[ 10-26-2004, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by Naked Paladin: Here's my party that I'm currently playing with for a complete run of IWD/HoW/TotLM: Human-Paladin: 2-Longswords, 2-Greatswords Human-[DC]Fighter(9)/Rogue: 5-Longswords,2-Bows Human-[DC]Fighter(9)/Mage: 5-Axes, 2-Bows Human-[DC]Fighter(9)/Cleric: 5-Flails, 2-Missiles Human-[DC]Fighter(13)/Druid: 5-Longswords, 3-Missiles Human-Bard: Whatever weapons Almost finished the IWD portion and I can say it has been pretty fun. Granted I didn't have a thief in the beginning but the traps and locks weren't nothing my fighters couldn't handle. @NobleNick: Why do you pick illusionist? I can't remember what the opposition school is off the top of my head. But you lose access to those spells in the opposite school for the benefit of one extra spell slot per spell level? If I were to pick a specialist, I would possibly pick Invoker for some heavy artillery fun or Conjurer for summoning up some cannon fodder. I'm just curious to your thoughts of picking illusionist.

Naked Paladin,

It surprises me to see that this is your first post, since I have seen you wandering the boards for at least a week. Let me be the first to say:

[img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . WELCOME to the IWD Forum! . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

Well, I see from your party that you understand Dual Classing!

Nice, also to hear someone saying that waiting to F[9] to DC to Thief is no problem.

I pick Mage specialties based on the schools they do NOT get. Instead of picking the school I want, I pick the schools I can do without, and pick the Mage that has that school as an opposition school. So, the reason for Illusionist (HoW installed) is that her opposition schools are Necromancy and (IIRC) Abjuration. Skull Trap is the only really valuable spell in the former, and the latter is, IMHO, totally worthless.

If you pick any other specialist school, you will almost certainly lose access to one of the following schools: Invocation, Conjuring and Illusionist. These are, IMO (and in that order) the three most valuable schools. Picking a Conjuror because you want Conjuring spells is a big mistake. The Illusionist conjures just as well as the Conjuror; but the Illusionist also has access to Invocation (the most powerful spell set) and the Conjuror does not. Same type of problem for the Invoker, but I forget what she loses.

In a 2 Mage party, I would pick the Necro to complement the Illusionist, each Mage specializes in one of the opposition schools of the other. Between the two, all schools are covered. And BOTH Mages have access to the two most powerful spell sets: Invocation and Conjuring.

The Bard also makes an excellent complement to any specialist Mage, since all schools are open to her.

Yes, I feel the specialization is worth it, especially in a 1-1/2 or 2 Mage party; because whenever you qualify for the next level spell, you get TWO slots at that new highest level. I know at least one very experienced player that prefers general Mage in single-Mage parties (he plays in HoF mode); but I have never wished that any of my Mages had taken that path.

Now I have a question for you. Why a second melee weapon for the Pally, instead of Bow?

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by G3MM4: Thanks for the advice. How about this... From what I've played so far, I can't see any need for a wizard spellcaster in the early levels - right up to The Vale of Shadows. I have more need of a thief, especially in The Vale of Shadows, where in the crypts etc there are traps. So what do you think of the above party? Maybe give some more info on PP/weapons and when to MC the Gnome thief?

G3MM4,

You are welcome.

I will review assuming HoW and assuming you want less reliance on Human DC characters.

Human paladin 2 PP Longsword, 2 PP Bows Good character. EXCELLENT melee weapon choice.

Dwarven fighter All PP Axe. I'm assuming you want axe as ranged weapon. You still will have to start with 2PP into another weapon and stack in at least two more later. I suggest a crushing (blunt) weapon, to complement your axe. (Hammer and Mace are best choices.)

Half-elf fighter - druid at level 10 5 PP Scimitar, 3 PP Sling Good weapon choices and PP stacking. Nice high DC level, though 9, 12 or 13 are the sweet spots for getting exactly what you want for the XP. You need a human to DC this character, which you must do in order to get the PP stacking you indicated. Expect to roll for a half hour, at least to get the 90 points (and allocate them VERY carefully) for a decent DC Fighter/Druid. (It is worth it.)

Human cleric PP/weapons? O.K, I said less reliance on Human DC characters; but *IF* you are going to make him Human, you might as well get the benefit of DC Fighter[9]/Cleric. Go with a 4/3 or 5/2 PP split between Mace(or Hammer) and Sling. (Make sure your Cleric and the Dwarf specialize in different blunt weapons.) You will not be sorry that you toughened this guy up; and, when you hit HoW, you will not be sorry you brought him along.

Half-elf bard Good choice. Better with the tweaks I made to your party above. (The more physical your party, the more valuable your Bard. Don't let her even touch a weapon after she gets to clvl 11.)

Gnomish thief - illusionist at what level??? PP/weapons? She has some drawbacks that become more apparent in the expansions, but a good character: I have one in my party, now. MC gets completely set up at character creation. You specify MC -BEFORE- the dice roll. (Not like DC, where you plan ahead.) You'll get to pick a few weapons, since you can't stack PP; but put at least 1 PP in Bow and one in Dagger. Staff and ShortSword would be next on my list.

Niether Mage nor Thief is crucial in the very early game. I agree that life is easier without a Mage than it is without a Thief in the early levels. You should have no problem with your setup.

Your arcane magic setup is EXACTLY the same as mine in my current party. The Bard will give you only a bit of extra Mage power in the beginning; but when you get into the expansions, she will outstrip the MC Illusionist as your most powerful Mage! You have an excellent Mage team!

Pinch your pennies until they scream, in order to get the Bardic Horn of Valhalla for your Bard as early as possible in the game. You will be so-o-o happy you did...

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-26-2004, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[jmsteven]

Originally posted by NobleNick: Half-elf fighter - druid at level 10 5 PP Scimitar, 3 PP Sling Good weapon choices and PP stacking. Nice high DC level, though 9, 12 or 13 are the sweet spots for getting exactly what you want for the XP. You need a human to DC this character, which you must do in order to get the PP stacking you indicated. Expect to roll for a half hour, at least to get the 90 points (and allocate them VERY carefully) for a decent DC Fighter/Druid. (It is worth it.) [/QB]

I have to disagree with Nick about this one. Here's why:

The only advantage of the human fighter dualed to a druid at 9th or 10th level is the extra 3 PP in scimitars. This gives the dual-class a +2 bonus to hit and +3 bonus damage over the multiclass with 2 PP per weapon. The additonal 1/2 attack for 5 PP is offset by 1/2 attack at 13th level for the multiclass.

I think that this advantage is relatively modest compared to the advantages of the multiclass:

(1) The half-elf multi-class can use all skills thoughout the entire game, and will increase druid levels very quickly early in the game. There are no awkward periods where you can't fight well or wear metal armor, and there's no need to time the transition to a key moment in the game.

(2) The multi-class will usually get better stats. It's much easier for the multiclass to role 90+ stat points because they get a minimum of 12 WIS and 15 CHA, whereas the dual-class gets a min. 3 WIS and 3 CHA. The multiclass also has more flexibility in ability score distribution. Since they only need 12 WIS and 15 CHA, they can put more points in DEX and CON. In contrast, the fighter who wants to dual to a druid must have 17 WIS & 17 CHA.

(3) Also, the half-elf multiclass gets 30% resistance to sleep and charm spells, and can use elf/half-elf only items. Without giving away a spoiler, there are a couple of items in the game that can only be used by elves and half-elves. There are no items available to humans that cannot be used by half-elves.

In aggregate, the advantages of the multiclass fighter/druid far surpass dual-class' attack and damage bonuses of having 5 PP instead of 2 PP. At the higher levels, the druid (either multi- or dual- class) will most likely just use spells like static charge, lighting, produce fire, summons, etc. and not engage in melee combat that much anyway.

[ 10-27-2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

[G3MM4]

OK well thanks for the advice.

Since I don't want too many humans in my party (I like a bit of variety), how about this?

Half-elf paladin (2 PP Longsword, 2 PP Bows)(Is it possible to have half-elf for a paladin? I don't recall which races can be a paladin... LOL.)
Dwarven fighter (How many PP can I put into Axe if I put 4 PP into Hammer?)
Human fighter - druid at level 9 (5 PP Scimitar, 3 PP Sling) (DC)
Human fighter - cleric at level 9 (4 PP Mace, 3 PP Sling) (DC)
Half-elf bard (If she shouldn't have a weapon at level 11, then what about before then? Does it matter about the number of PP for any given weapon?)
Gnomish thief - illusionist (1 PP Dagger, 1 PP Bow, 1 PP Short Sword) (MC)

[ 10-27-2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: G3MM4 ]

[jmsteven]

I think in terms of functionality and then pick classes that have the needed skill sets, without too much overlap.

Fighting: Fighters, Rangers, Paladins
Healing: Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Rangers
Scouting: Rangers, Thieves
Pick Pockets: Thieves, Bards
Open Locks: Mages (knock), Bards (knock), Thieves
Find/Remove Traps: only thieves can remove traps

Based on this, I would pick:

(1) Half-elf Cleric/Ranger: fights, heals, scouts
(2) Half-elf Bard: picks pockets, "knocks" chests, sings for party
(3) Human Thief dualed to fighter at 4th level: ALL thief skill points allocated to find/remove traps (will have 100 in F/R traps at 4th level). Character fights and finds/removes traps.

The above three have all the necessary skills needed for the game and can serve as a foundation. If you want 3 more characters, I would pick those that have fighting and healing skills.

(4) Human Paladin
(5) Half-elf Fighter/Druid
(6) whatever you want, at this point you've got the whole thing covered.

[ 10-27-2004, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]