People like this need to be put away....permanently

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Jeffi0: . It might cost the jail a few dollars a day for him, but what is that? The government rakes in billions each year, so supporting an entire jail might be the same as if a average businessman lived and payed taxes in another country. Not much money is lost. Like I said earlier, we didn't give him life so we shouldn't take it away.

Actually, in Texas it costs between $50,000 and $60,000 per year to keep one person in prison. All of those buildings, guards, walls, etc., cost a LOT. Whereas, a graveyard plot costs about $50 a year. Nice and cheap. I agree with MagiK that some things are so evil that they cry out for anger and hatred. But, then, I am not a moral relevist.

Why do we not save our compassion and love for those who do not threaten society and innocent children?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Rokenn: Well I for one agree that murder and torture are a bad thing. The level of barbarity displayed in some of the 'Crime and Punishment' threads on this board is truly sickening at times.

Rokenn, I agree that murder - and especially torture - are "bad". However, it is the level of barbarity that is perpetrated in real life that sickens me. Yes, people on this board engage in some "venting" to help express their outrage at such heinous acts as the one described in the article; but the major difference is that the people here are only "talking" about inflicting pain and death on somebody - very few of them {myself included} would actually carry through with these threats.

However, the father in this case DID commit a horrific atrocity on a helpless infant. He deliberately injected an incurable and deadly disease into a BABY!!! Not because he was insane, but because he didn't want the responsibility associated with raising this child. Not only did his actions sentence his own flesh-and-blood to a tortured life and slow death - they also had a tremendously adverse affect on the mother, two sisters, and everyone associated with caring for the boy. All of this was done out of self-centered greed. THAT is a far more barbaric act than anything I have ever seen posted here.

If you want to be outraged, then be outraged at the person who actually commits such "barbaric acts".

Also, the only time you see these "barbaric" discussions is when the discussion concerns the punishment of somebody who actually committed some horribly barbaric act in REAL LIFE! So, if you want to be outraged, then be outraged at the heartless person who commits such an act rathter than those who just talk about it.

Originally posted by Rokenn: Thankfully the founders of the US had the foresight to place a ban on Cruel and Unusual punishment in the Constitution.

Very true. What a pity they couldn't also ban malicious acts of barbaric cruelty on innocent victims.

[Attalus]

Good one, Cerek. I wish that everyone who makes pious arguments about how bad that it would be to humanely kill convicted murderers would have to watch videotapes of the crime, see the mutilated bodies of the victims, and deal with the families, afterwards. I have done all of these.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Attalus: quote: Originally posted by Jeffi0: . It might cost the jail a few dollars a day for him, but what is that? The government rakes in billions each year, so supporting an entire jail might be the same as if a average businessman lived and payed taxes in another country. Not much money is lost. Like I said earlier, we didn't give him life so we shouldn't take it away.

Actually, in Texas it costs between $50,000 and $60,000 per year to keep one person in prison. All of those buildings, guards, walls, etc., cost a LOT. Whereas, a graveyard plot costs about $50 a year. Nice and cheap. I agree with MagiK that some things are so evil that they cry out for anger and hatred. But, then, I am not a moral relevist.[/QUOTE]Attalus, you *do* know that applying the death penalty to a person in the US is actually more expensive than to put him in jail for the rest of his life? Because of the expensive investigations, appeals, lawyers, you name it...
I think we've had this discussion before (about 45 times, IIRC ), but I believe I've posted a link with the proof to back up my previous statement here on Ironworks about a year ago... I'll look it up one of these days if I get around to it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-20-2002, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Jeffi0]

"Very true. What a pity they couldn't also ban malicious acts of barbaric cruelty on innocent victims."

Um, they *did* ban cruelty on innocent victims. That is why this dude is being thrown in jail. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

BTW, so it's 50-60k. Even that isn't a huge amount of money- one or two taxpayers make up that difference. In a country of millions of people. My main point is that since we didn't give him life we shouldn't take it away, and he can't harm anyone locked up in jail. I've said that before though, and nobody but you is listening, so there is no point in saying it again. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Grojlach: Attalus, you *do* know that applying the death penalty to a person in the US is actually more expensive than to put him in jail for the rest of his life? Because of the expensive investigations, appeals, lawyers, you name it... I think we've had this discussion before (about 45 times, IIRC ), but I believe I've posted a link with the proof to back up my previous statement here on Ironworks about a year ago... I'll look it up one of these days if I get around to it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh, yes, I certainly know that, but I was merely refuting the "just a few dollars" argument. My answer to the "expense" argument is that it is worth it to get rid of these people, permantly.

[Grojlach]

Gotsha. About 20 seconds of googling and I found hundreds of sites backing up my statement.

The death penalty is more expensive to impose than life imprisonment. The death penalty in North Carolina costs 2.16 million dollars per execution more than a non-death penalty murder trial. Research in other states indicates executions are three to six times more costly than life imprisonment.--Duke University, 1993 It is estimated the state would save $1-2.5 million dollars per year on Public Defender costs alone, if the death penalty was replaced with an alternative sentence.--New Mexico State Public Defender Department, 1999 Source: http://www.nmrepeal.com/facts%20English.htm

or a very subjective anti-death penalty analysis:

The Death Penalty differs from all other forms of punishments in that it cannot be reversed and should therefore be abolished. With death penalty as a punishment many murderers are not deterred from committing crimes. The high cost of the death penalty are a just reason to rid it from the government. The American Constitution has laws that the death penalty goes against. The Death Penalty is unjust and unfair and should be abolished. Death Penalty is no more effective than imprisonment at deterring others from committing crime. For deterrence to work the offender must see the penalty as a threat. Most people who commit murders do so mostly in the heat of passion, under the influence of drugs or alcohol and are thinking very little about the consequences. Those who actually plan murders expect to avoid punishment by not getting caught. Some people commit murder as a way of punishing themselves or committing suicide. Others see it as a way to gain notoriety, for those the consequence is an attraction. This could possibly explain why capital punishment may encourage some homicides and why some killers have asked to die. The Death Penalty may have an opposite effect of what is intended, after a man in Florida was executed, homicides seemed to rise. In New York a study was done that suggests that an execution will cause two or three extra homicides in the following months within that state or even the country. Rather than preventing violence, capital punishment may have a "brutalizing effect", increasing the level of violence in society. Hence, it may rise not lower murder rates. American states with the death penalty do not have lower crime or murder rates than those states without the death penalty. The death penalty laws that are in thirty eight states wrongly convince society that the government has taken effective measures to deter crime and homicide. In reality these laws do absolutely nothing to protect citizens from dangerous criminals. The Death penalty is no more effective than imprisonment at deterring others from committing crimes. By killing a murderer, we encourage, allow or legitimize unlawful killing. The Death penalty is thought to be a cost effective punishment that is cheaper than prolonged imprisonment yet this is absolutely not true. Studies show that a criminal justice system with the death penalty is more expensive than one without the penalty. The high costs are due to the trial process in death penalty cases being longer and more complicated because of the precautions taken to minimize errors and inconsistencies. The appeals process is also more costly. After spending huge sums of money on trials, appeals and death row, many do not actually receive the punishment; thus adding the costs of long term imprisonment to those of the death penalty trial and appeal. Executions are surprisingly expensive; a New York study estimated the costs for trial, appeal, housing on death row and the execution itself run to more than $2,000,000 per person. This exceeds the $300,000 ■ $750,000 that it costs to maintain a prisoner for thirty years. In Texas the a death penalty case costs an average of 2.3 million dollars, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for forty years. Florida spends about 3.2 million dollars on each death row inmate compared to about $535,000 for an average of forty years for each prisoner sentenced to life. Even if the death penalty did save money, could economic figures explain taking a life? The Death Penalty is unconstitutional according to the United States eighth amendment and carrying out the punishment violates the fourteenth amendment. The eighth amendment states that "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."As well, the fourteenth amendment states in section one that "All persons born or neutralized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privilege or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." In sum of the eighth and fourteenth amendments, the fourteenth states "equal protection of the laws and due processes." This points to the existence of certain basic standards of honour and fairness from which no state can be exempt. The eighth restricts "cruel and unusual punishment", the death penalty defies this with uses of hanging, electrocution, gas chambers, firing squads and lethal injection. Source: http://www.netrover.com/~chat/DPT3A/...h_penalty.html

I used to have a link to the official investigation about the costs, but can't find it right away... Oh well. Off to bed I go.

[ 11-20-2002, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Lord Starshadow]

Originally posted by Jeffi0: BTW, so it's 50-60k. Even that isn't a huge amount of money- one or two taxpayers make up that difference.

You know, there are many people in the US that don't make that kind of money in a year, so yes, it really is a lot of money.

[Jeffi0]

Thank you. Nice to have somebody agreeing with me... [img]smile.gif[/img]