More ramblings from me.

[antryg]

Skywalker-
Do you seriously mean you believe in nothing? At the least my hope is that you hold to no religious belief.

[skywalker]

Originally posted by antryg: Skywalker- Do you seriously mean you believe in nothing? At the least my hope is that you hold to no religious belief.

I do not believe there is a God.

Mark

[Attalus]

Originally posted by skywalker:

So you think people are good because "God" tells them to be. Why can't I be moral, because I feel that's the right way to be?

Mark[/QUOTE]
NO, no, no. Most people, atheists included, have impulses to do good things. It's not because God is telling them anything. Where did this aspiration to good come from in a cold, atomised, dog-eat-dog universe? And, why are dogs less likey to act this way through association with humans? That, I think, is the essiential question that I ask and come up with no other answer than a God who is trying to make mankind into His image. Not physical image, of course, since He has no body, but to make our souls into as close a copy of His as is possible.

[Aelia Jusa]

Originally posted by MagiK: Sorry about the color thing. A.J. you keep answering my question with questions and not really giving an answer. If you are an Atheist I would really like to know what your rationale is. My question was not posted to defend my thoughts on the subject but to seek the thoughts of others. Some other time I may decide to make a thread about that other issue. People keep trying to read into my question. It is not that deep. Im asking Atheists what their rationale is for non-selfish acts. Is my phraseology that bad that you two can't see what Im asking or is it that you just aren't interested in exploring the issue? Either way is fine, Im just confused Sorry if that sounded mean but Im trying to communicate and keep missing the mark somehow and don't know why.

I think you're asking what is the rationale for atheists to be selfless given that they don't believe in god. Yes? I believe I did give some suggestions to that question:

Originally posted by Me: Love? Reverence for life and humanity? Caring about someone besides yourself?

Did the question marks at the end confuse you? They weren't meant to be questions, more the message-board equalivalent of the (I'm told charming) practice of Australian women to end all sentences as if they're questions . I suppose I haven't ever really given much thought to why I'm a good person (I believe I'm good enough anyway). These seem to me like a perfectly good rationale for behaving in a compassionate manner without any dependence on a religious code of conduct. They seemed self explanatory when I thought them up but I suppose I could spell them out if necessary. If I love someone I do things for them that will help them even if they don't help me. I revere life and humanity so I behave in ways that display that - ie I don't steal or be unnecessarily rude or engage in indiscriminate maiming even if I really really want to. I care about others besides myself so I donate to charities and (will in the new year anyway ) volunteer my time to help others.

I think the question you pose lends itself to the questions that were asked. You seem to me to be begging the question that there is a rationale (as I also pointed out before which you didn't comment on - why?). You obviously believe there needs to be a rationale, ie that people's first instinct is to be selfish and if they don't have some rational hypothesis about why they shouldn't be they will - is that true? I don't know.

There also seems to be implicit in your question the idea that religious people are selfless because God said so. I don't think that's necessarily true either. I think people religious people are selfless because they have a code of conduct that prescribes such behaviour - there's no reason atheists can't have the same sort of beliefs. Humans always put themselves above animals because we are rational and understand the need for a moral code. I don't think however that this comes from God - there may be a god who sent down the ten commandments, but men can, and did work these things out for themselves. Consider pagan religions, specifically Greek and Roman (cause I know about them ). These didn't have any sort of moral idea in them - people prayed and sacrificed to get stuff and if they didn't get it it was because they did the rituals wrong, not because they'd sinned. Yet people did selfless things then. For much the same reasons atheists, and I would argue Christians do - we do unto others because it's the right thing to do. Because it makes the world a nicer place.

I think also the question implies (though I'm sure this isn't your intention or what you believe) the idea that if you don't have to be compassionate (ie because God said so and otherwise you'll go to hell or something) why would you?

Sorry if you didn't intend your question to raise questions of its own. But it did! Such is the way of IW

Originally posted by Aelia Jusa: I think you're asking what is the rationale for atheists to be selfless given that they don't believe in god. Yes? I believe I did give some suggestions to that question: Well that is partly right, except the god thing. You could leave the god phrase out of that sentence and that would be perfect. I was just asking about the rationale period [img]smile.gif[/img] quote: Originally posted by Me: Love? Reverence for life and humanity? Caring about someone besides yourself?

Did the question marks at the end confuse you? They weren't meant to be questions, more the message-board equalivalent of the (I'm told charming) practice of Australian women to end all sentences as if they're questions .

You are quite correct, normally I would have thought it charming [img]smile.gif[/img] however tonight i am imitating a dull witted dunce and need to turn my brain back on... I read questions literally and now have no idea why [img]smile.gif[/img]

I suppose I haven't ever really given much thought to why I'm a good person (I believe I'm good enough anyway). These seem to me like a perfectly good rationale for behaving in a compassionate manner without any dependence on a religious code of conduct. They seemed self explanatory when I thought them up but I suppose I could spell them out if necessary. If I love someone I do things for them that will help them even if they don't help me. I revere life and humanity so I behave in ways that display that - ie I don't steal or be unnecessarily rude or engage in indiscriminate maiming even if I really really want to. I care about others besides myself so I donate to charities and (will in the new year anyway ) volunteer my time to help others.

I respect all the things you mention, but am not really any closer to a why. Your reasons are yours but...I guess I was looking for foundations. [img]smile.gif[/img] and indeed there doesnt have to be a why, maybe you are the way you are "just because" Im sort of blindly groping for the atheist structurer of the universe here or something...maybe im not in a place at thismoment that I can explain what Im really getting at either.

I think the question you pose lends itself to the questions that were asked. You seem to me to be begging the question that there is a rationale (as I also pointed out before which you didn't comment on - why?). You obviously believe there needs to be a rationale, ie that people's first instinct is to be selfish and if they don't have some rational hypothesis about why they shouldn't be they will - is that true? I don't know.

I don't think that people are all that irrational and so I got to thinking about the motivations of atheists and thought I would ask [img]smile.gif[/img] I really didn't want to explore the ups and downs, the goods and the bads just the whys. But as you said there doesn't always have to be a why. some times I guess the answer is "Just Because"

There also seems to be implicit in your question the idea that religious people are selfless because God said so. I don't think that's necessarily true either. I think people religious people are selfless because they have a code of conduct that prescribes such behaviour - there's no reason atheists can't have the same sort of beliefs. Humans always put themselves above animals because we are rational and understand the need for a moral code. I don't think however that this comes from God - there may be a god who sent down the ten commandments, but men can, and did work these things out for themselves. Consider pagan religions, specifically Greek and Roman (cause I know about them ). These didn't have any sort of moral idea in them - people prayed and sacrificed to get stuff and if they didn't get it it was because they did the rituals wrong, not because they'd sinned. Yet people did selfless things then. For much the same reasons atheists, and I would argue Christians do - we do unto others because it's the right thing to do. Because it makes the world a nicer place.

I wasnt making any claims about the motivations of religious people. I really can't speak for them. All I know is what my motivations are and the foundations of my beliefs. I know my beliefs, laws and moral codes are based ont he Judeo Christian ethics (no Im not claiming they have a lock on them) so I know what my foundations and motivations are but I still do not know how atheists can construct anything but selfish type ethics. Why is any atheist driven to do anything "good", if it might detract from personal well being? This question may in fact be too deep for this kind of forum too. I don't know.

I think also the question implies (though I'm sure this isn't your intention or what you believe) the idea that if you don't have to be compassionate (ie because God said so and otherwise you'll go to hell or something) why would you?

Your right I was not trying to imply anything. I am/was just trying to make a map, so to speak of motivation.

Sorry if you didn't intend your question to raise questions of its own. But it did! Such is the way of IW [/QUOTE]No need for apology, as I said I know my last post sounded kind of grumpy but it really wasnt ment to be, I just couldnt think of a better way to say what I was trying to say ..I do have my limitations But thanks for bearing with me and not taking offense . [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-23-2002, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Djinn Raffo]

Being religious does not mean that you know the difference between right and wrong.

Being an atheist does not mean that you don't know the difference between right and wrong.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Attalus: quote: Originally posted by skywalker:

So you think people are good because "God" tells them to be. Why can't I be moral, because I feel that's the right way to be?

Mark[/QUOTE]

[QB/]NO, no, no. Most people, atheists included, have impulses to do good things. It's not because God is telling them anything. Where did this aspiration to good come from in a cold, atomised, dog-eat-dog universe? And, why are dogs less likey to act this way through association with humans? That, I think, is the essiential question that I ask and come up with no other answer than a God who is trying to make mankind into His image. Not physical image, of course, since He has no body, but to make our souls into as close a copy of His as is possible.

See I don't get this. Why did some *thinking* or *greater* creature need to put reason into us? It happened. Random genetic drift and chemical reactions over time made it happen. A little space hamster named Boo made it happen. Who cares? We have reason and compassion, and we don't how. Any answer we make only adds another mystery.

Who made God? If your answer is "why ask" or "he is eternal" then I say why not just say "the urstoff of the universe is eternal." There are unanswered questions in the universe, period. If you apply Newton's gavitational force attraction math to the Earth and the Moon, as Aasimov pointed out, you will find that the moon should *not* be there. He found cause for a belief in a God in this. I find only the fact that there are as-yet-not-understood forces at work. Why must we name those forces and make a pet diety?

It's too much arrogance. Maybe there is a God and in trying to create the Tribbles in his image, he accidentally made us? Why the need to have a father figure like us who made us and watches over us? The world is cold, hard, and cruel, but also beautiful and warm. And we are burdened with these big brains that think about crazy things like "the good."

MagicK: To better answer your question, because we are capable of reason we have a duty to ourselves to behave accordingly. Your question presumes that aetheists can *understand* right and wrong, and I agree. You ask why, then, do the good without pecuniary benefit to yourself? I say, because you love or respect yourself, and you just might feel the need to be true to what those chemical reactions firing in your brain tell you is the *right* thing to do. I like the CRPG example. Even my *evil* BG2 party has like a 14 rep, with Viconia? And I can act however I want in the game - I simply choose and *like* the good guy things. Aetheists do not lack a sense of justice.

And I am true to my reasoning when it tells me that some things society sees as "evil" are in fact the better thing to do. I cite my abortion example above. And others do this too. Malthus truly believed the world would be a better place if we let the sick and weak die off before our very eyes. Certainly unChristian, but he considered himself a good guy.

Besides, my ultimate goal is to interact and discourse with the world so I may learn more. And, you folks wouldn't talk to me anymore if I was an absolute s**thead. So, I guess there is some small pecuniary benefit no matter what.

Look, in sum, some things just make me feel "better" to do, and I just don't find God in that simple fact.

[edit] I ask you again, MagicK: If the correlation between being good or evil or selfish and gaining permanent immortaility in heaven were removed tomorrow, would you still do good things? Would you act only and totally selfishly? If so, why or why not?

[ 10-24-2002, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

TL I cannot answer your repeated question. If you remove the foundations that formed the person that is me today, I cannot tell you what I would be like. And apparently Atheists can't tell me why they ever commit selfless or kind acts nor have any of them told me on what they base their measure of "good and evil" on. What do you measure against? What makes something good and what makes something evil? And why should one person sacrifice him self to save another? All Im askin for are some whys and wherefores but apparently no one has one.

Im not saying that Atheists cannot or will not do good and kind things, just wondering as to why?

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by MagiK: TL I cannot answer your repeated question. If you remove the foundations that formed the person that is me today, I cannot tell you what I would be like. And apparently Atheists can't tell me why they ever commit selfless or kind acts nor have any of them told me on what they base their measure of "good and evil" on. What do you measure against? What makes something good and what makes something evil? And why should one person sacrifice him self to save another? All Im askin for are some whys and wherefores but apparently no one has one. Im not saying that Atheists cannot or will not do good and kind things, just wondering as to why?

Of those questions you ask MagiK.. What do the base their measure of good and evil on, what makes something good and what makes it evil, why should one person sacrifice himself for another...

Aelia Jusa did answer them for you.

What makes a religious person commit selfless acts? The bible? What about hindus? Or Shintoists? Do Buddhists know right from wrong? Are all hindus sinners in christian eyes? Do all religious peoples of every faith commit selfless acts? Would all christians sacrifice themselves for another?

Your questions are directed at athiests but should be directed at all humanity because what makes an athiest commit selfless acts is probably no different from what makes 99% of mankind commit selfless acts. It seems kind of like you're flamebaiting the athiests.

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Of those questions you ask MagiK.. What do the base their measure of good and evil on, what makes something good and what makes it evil, why should one person sacrifice himself for another... Aelia Jusa did answer them for you. Actually A.J. Didn't answeer the question as much as made me refine it a bit. The ultimate reason concluded int hat post is pretty much just "because" which really isn't a reason. What makes a religious person commit selfless acts? The bible? What about hindus? Or Shintoists? Do Buddhists know right from wrong? Are all hindus sinners in christian eyes? Do all religious peoples of every faith commit selfless acts? Would all christians sacrifice themselves for another? Thats a whole different Issue and I already know the answers to that for my self. What Im trying to do is to try and understand Atheistic motivations better. Right now I do not care to digress and turn the question around onto the theistic because right now my interest and focus is on the atheistic. Your questions are directed at athiests but should be directed at all humanity because what makes an athiest commit selfless acts is probably no different from what makes 99% of mankind commit selfless acts. It seems kind of like you're flamebaiting the athiests. Not so! It was my question. I am allowed to ask my own questions. As I said before, I already know the answers to your question as far as myself is concerned. And you are being rather simplistic by saying "because god said so, or because you dont want to go to hell" I prefer to keep my focus on the atheistic for now because that is where my interest and curiosity lies. We can have a seperate discussion some other time about why theists do what they do.