Dual Classing for beginners

[Duke Hereward]

Ok

All of my party (fighter, paladin, ranger, thief, cleric, mage - not the best combo I know) are at or around lvl 8. What's the deal with dual-classing then? When (in theory) should I do it, what classes can and what should they class to, and will I still be able to get my fighter up to grand master?

This has probably been discussed before, but if anyone is prepared to explain it to a newcomer it would be much appreciated!

BTW - all of my party is human lawful good. I am so unimaginative (strange for a marketeer).

[True_Moose]

Fighter should be able to go to grand-master still, but after you've regained your fighter levels. I don't know too much about levels for dual-classing in IWD, but I don't think it would be wise to dual-class your cleric or mage, since they are your only pure-casters.

What skills are you concentrating on for thieves? If you find that you can handle most traps and locks easily, and that's all you want your thief to do (ie no backstabbing) you might consider dual-classing him/her.

Paladin's can't be dual-classed. Rangers can only be dual-classed to clerics, and you already have one of those. The fighter can be dual-classed to near-anything, and you presumably already have 2 tanks (ranger + paladin) so you could dual-class him to anything to serve in an auxiliary role.

One thing though: if you haven't already thought of the possible dual-classing, your statistics might not be adequate for dual-classing. Remember that you need 17 in the prime attribute(s) of the class you are dualing to, and 15 in the prime attribute(s) of the class you are dualing from.

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by Duke Hereward: Ok All of my party (fighter, paladin, ranger, thief, cleric, mage - not the best combo I know) are at or around lvl 8. What's the deal with dual-classing then? When (in theory) should I do it, what classes can and what should they class to, and will I still be able to get my fighter up to grand master? This has probably been discussed before, but if anyone is prepared to explain it to a newcomer it would be much appreciated! BTW - all of my party is human lawful good. I am so unimaginative (strange for a marketeer).

Duke,

The bad news: True_Moose is right: The time to be thinking about dual-class (dc) is before you roll your character. You probably can't dc to anything worthwhile (if anything at all) with what you've got now.

The good news: At level 8, you have not invested that much time. Start over! (it's fun!)

More good news: If you start over, your Paladin is one of the few characters which you will want to keep, so export him, then import him into your new party. With this relatively senior character in your new party the replay of the early game will go rather quickly. (If he was leader of your old party, don't make him leader of the new one until you catch up to where he was before)

First, a general statement: Dual-classing (dc) is very, VERY good!

Second, some constraints:

HARD CONSTRAINTS:
1.) You cannot dc (nor mc) a bard. (I found this out trying to dc a fighter to one!)
2.) You cannot dc (nor mc) a paladin.
3.) Your character must be human to dc (and, by the way, must be non-human to multi-class [mc].)
4.) You need 15+ in prime ability requisites for the class you will leave *AND* 17+ in the prime reqs of the class to which you will arrive when you dc.
5.) Some characters/combos have alignment constraints. For instance, druids must have neutral alignment; so any character designed to dc to druid must be neutral.
6.) Abilities in your first class ARE LOST until you gain one level HIGHER in your second class than you had in your first. So, a fighter dc to mage at fighter level 9, regains his weapon proficiencies and extra ApR when he achieves level 10 mage. Until he hits mage level 10, he is simply a mage (with extra hitpoints).

SOFT CONSTRAINTS:
7.) You want infravision capability represented in your party. A paladin is a nice character to have. Remember, however, that the paladin as well as all dc characters must be human. With these constraints, it would be easy to build an all-human party (like you did); but humans don't have infravision.
8.) *IF* you have HoW installed, bards and druids really rock the house. Have at least one (if not both) represented in your party.
9.) A thief is essential at all times.
10.) Your party must be viable before, during, and after, the dc.

For purposes of illustration (this party is a little light on magic for my tastes), let's say *YOU* want to END UP with:

1.) Paladin
2.) Fighter
3.) Druid
4.) Thief
5.) Bard
6.) Mage

Then you might plan your party as follows:

1.) Paladin (can't dc)
2.) Cleric -- dc to --> Fighter
3.) Fighter -- dc to --> Druid
4.) Fighter -- dc to --> Thief
5.) Bard (can't dc)
6.) Thief -- dc to --> Mage

Every character in this party, except the bard, MUST be human; so make the bard a race with infravision [e.g., gnome or (IIRC) dwarf].

The most obvious advantage of dc is the extra hitpoints gained in your first class. I will not dwell on this advantage as we inspect each character; but it is very important.

The second most obvious advantage is that you can gain weapon proficiency levels as a fighter that would be impossible as a straight class. To answer one of your questions: with proper planning, your fighter can achieve grand mastery at level 9. (** at level 1, *** at level 3, **** at level 6, and ***** at level 9.)

Level 9 is one of the "sweet spots" for dualing a fighter over. [Sweet spots are at levels 3 (gain *), 6 (gain *), 7 (gain 1/2 ApR), 9 (gain *), 12 (gain *), 13 (gain 1/2 ApR), and 15 (gain *).] If you've thought ahead, your level 9 fighter has either bows/missiles at *** and a melee weap at ****, or bows/missiles at ** and melee weap at *****. I would wait until levels 9-13, if playing HOW or thinking of HoF mode; but most people don't have that kind of patience and would dual over at level 3 or level 7. Level 9 is a great place to dc if you've got ***** in a melee weapon, because grand mastery gives you an extra full Attack per Round (ApR).

Now that I've beat this horse dead, I won't dwell on proficiency points again, except where it is especially important.

1.) Paladin: Can't dc; but he is worth it, anyway. He is your tank, with very good saving throws. He is the guy who gets beat on, and he's very good at it (grin). He needs someone to bolster his natural resistances with cleric-like buffer spells to really shine.

2.) Cleric/Fighter: In the beginning you don't need a fighter, since your early party has scads of melee types; so start him as a cleric, and your party will acquire the buffer spells your tank will need. (Also, it would be nice to get "silence" spell.) Plan for this guy to dc from cleric over to fighter after your bard gets "War Chant of Sith" (healing and buffer song). With the fighter/cleric's spells, the paladin's modest cleric-like abilities, the bard's "War Chant of Sith," and available potions, you should get along fine without a full blown Cleric. (Note: this is the only character in this illustration party who ends up with a significant weapons constraint: fighter must pick melee and missile weapons that are compatible with cleric's ethos. This is, IMHO, a small price to pay for the extra hp and cleric spells.)

3.) Fighter/Druid: Extra hit points, extra ApR, and deep weapon proficiencies are the name of the game, here. Dualing over at fighter level 9 yields an extra 126 hp and grand mastery in melee weapon. (Make sure it is one a druid can use!) Go to level 12 to also get *** in sling, or 13 to also gain another 1/2 ApR. Once this guy gets to where he can transform into earth or water elemental, he can be a tank in his own right; and the extra fighter stats just make it sweeter!

Dual classing a fighter to a druid makes a real kick-assassin character; but to make it work well you need at least 89 ability points (and 90 is better), which can take a while to roll. (Expect to spend at least 30 minutes re-rolling.) Having just done this, I've been educated by several studious and experienced gamers (see recent thread in this forum). For an 89 point roll, your points should be distributed as follows:

STR = 15
DEX = 18
CON = 18
INT = 3
WIS = 18
CHA = 17

You need STR=15 to wear best armor, and (more importantly) to dc out of fighter. DEX=18 gives best AC mods (-4) for ability. CON=18 gives max bonus hitpoints gained per level. WIS=18 gives max spells and better saving throws; and you need WIS=17+ and CHA=17+ to dual class to druid.

Your strategy with the above build would be to use potions and spells to get extra STR when you need it. (If you get extra points (roll a 90 or better) put them in STR.) An alternate strategy is to max STR (STR = 18/xx) and use potions and spells to get DEX when you need it. DEX dramatically affects your armor class, and STR dramatically affects the amount of damage you dish out. So the choice is yours. I chose to max out STR during character roll, and then augment DEX in the game as needed; but folks whose opinion I respect chose to max DEX, and augment STR as needed. There are plenty of potions, spells and magical items around to augment either.

4.) Fighter/Thief: A thief is a very, VERY useful gal (essential!). Her only real drawback being that she is very often caught BEYOND the front line with relatively low offensive capability, and low hitpoints to boot. So plug up those two weak points by starting her as a fighter! (Note that this means you must start someone else out as a thief.) Maybe dc at fighter level 6 or 7 (with bows and melee weapon both at a respectable ***), so as not to force "character 6" to wait until high levels to dc from thief to mage.

5.) Bard: Can't dc, but she's worth it anyway. "War chant of the Sith" is good enough, and will help you function without a cleric; and she also gets a happy helping of mage spells, to help you weather the time without a full mage. As the only person in the party that your plan allows to be non-human, you'll want her to have infravision. (Save your pennies, and plan to buy her the "Bardic horn of Valhalla," in Kuldahar, EARLY in the game [before you complete the Vale]: You'll be glad you did!)

6.) Thief/Mage: Start as a thief to plug the "thief deficiency" while "character 4" develops. (Dual classing a fighter to mage is, IMHO, a much more wonderful idea: The extra hitpoints keeps these guys from being a defensive liability. And, if the situation calls for it, your mage can ditch the wand, pull out the blade and armor, and "Viola'! A fighter!" See several recent threads on this. Ditto for when to dual over. HOWEVER, in this hypothetical illustration, you need the thief in the early game.) A bonus is: "character 4" is a MUCH tougher thief, who can be a viable frontline combatant, in a pinch; and "character 6" is a tougher mage, who won't die nearly as easily as if she were straight classed. You also get an extra character that can hide in shadows and backstab. (Note: In order to give "character 4" time to develop, you might have to run two thieves for a short time.)

A final suggestion: whomever you decide to dc, plan it out before character roll. Then, when your character first levels, do a test dc to the character you planned on going to. (Save your game first, and remember to NOT save it later, if you actually dc.) This will prevent unpleasant surprises after you have invested lots of time in your character.

What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!


[ 11-12-2002, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Duke Hereward]

Thank you one and all for the detailed decriptions - didn't think I wanted to, but now have decided to start over and get some good dc characters!

[Yanez]

Originally posted by NobleNick: Every character in this party, except the bard, MUST be human; so make the bard a race with infravision [e.g., gnome or (IIRC) dwarf].

If I recall correctly only humans and half-elves can be bards. So, in that case he should take a half-elf bard, because they have infravision too.

[Peytin of Rothmire]

NobleNick: Will you come over and put together my new entertainment system? You seem like the right person for the job. That was excellent!!!

Duke H: Welcome to the boards!

[SirWillow]

Great write up there NobleNick. Only one problem that I see in the whole schematic, and that's with the cleric dualed to a fighter. You make the comment that they get more hit points that way. They don't.

Clerics hit points are based on an 8 sided die, while a fighter's is based on a 10 sided die. Assuming a constitution of 18, the max hit points a cleric can have per level, up to level 9, is 10 (8 + 2 for constitution bonus limited because they aren't a fighter). On the other hand a fighter can have a max of 14 hit points per level (10 +4 for constitution bonus) giving the fighter class a huge 4 point per level advantange in hit points that is lost if you go with the cleric class first, meaning a difference of around 36 hit points at 9th level)

My method may have been a little unorthodox, but it's worked exceedingly well for my group. Here's what I've done:

Paladin (got to have one for Pale Justice)
Ranger dualed at level 9 to cleric (cleric and druid spells, turns undead, fighter skills- he rocks)
Fighter dualed at level 9 to mage (archery and long sword)
multiclassed fighter/druid
multiclassed mage/ thief
cleric that when my ranger dualed over to cleric I dropped and replaced with a bard. Worked well in the storyline to because she happened to die right around that time. The bard gained quickly enough at that point that they were very quickly up to snuff.

With this group there isn't a spell in the game I can't cast or a skill that I can't use. I love the versatility and the fact that there is only one "weak" character up close (the theif/ mage).

But I just don't get the dualing a cleric over to a fighter. You lose hit points, your spell progression is locked, your turn undead ability doesn't gain with the difficulty of the undead. I just don't see the advantages there as opposed to doing it the other way. In fact, you can easily survive the begining with only a druid there for the healing at the begining and just go with a bard in that sixth slot.

[NobleNick]

Duke,

Ya-a-ay!! Go for it! (And please keep us informed of how things turn out for you!)

Yanez,

Thanks for keeping me straight. I did not remember (though I rolled her not TOO long ago) that a bard had race restrictions. Nor could I say with confidence that elves had infravision. I think I rolled an elf bard.

Peytin,

Thank you for the complement, you rascally party-manipulator after my own heart.

SirWillow,

Yeah, I have a gnome thief/Illusionist mc in one of my parties that I love so much that I keep exporting her to use in all my parties! Very powerful and versatile character. No significant complaints at all about her, except the low hitpoints. I am grooming a fighter/thief dc to see if the extra hp and fighter skills are worth the loss of the mage spells. I think it will be a close call, at best, for the fighter/thief dc; but am enjoying the experiment: Got her to fighter level 9, a few days ago, and don't know whether to dc here or go to levels 12 or 13. It looks like a long haul, but I think I'll hold on at least to fighter 12 and then dc.

Maybe my understanding of the dc process is flawed; because, since I am so greedy, I haven't actually DCed my characters yet! (I am waiting for fighter level 13 on most of them!)

You do gain hp in your new class after you dual over, correct? I do not own any dc character that doesn't start as a fighter, except a ranger in one of my parties that I ensured could eventually dc to cleric.

My strategy for the cleric/fighter in the illustration above was to go to about level 9 or 10 as a priest, collect the needed spells and 90-100 hp; then dc to fighter and collect 14 per level in that class, too. Your question intimates that this is not so; and, if you are correct, yes, it would be most advantageous *FOR THE CHARACTER* to start life as the class that gives most hp (fighter, in this case). However, even with lower hp, it *might* still be most advantageous *FOR THE PARTY* in the above illustration to have a fighter with bonus priest spells, rather than a priest with bonus hp.

I have to agree that this is not a character I would prefer to build; but he was good for illustrative purposes.

Even though it won't significantly affect the plan I have for my particular characters, other than to hold on to them longer before DCing them; I would like to know the answer: If you take a priest, with CON=18, to level 10 (collecting 100 hp); can you dc him to fighter and collect an additional 140 hp by the time you get to fighter level 10 (240 hp total)?

Party On!


[ 11-13-2002, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[SirWillow]

To answer the question, no you do not gain any hit points in your new class until you have passed the level of your previous class. At the same time as you gain back your old abilities you will also be able to start gaining hit points for your new class.

Hence the reason that if you're going to dual class it's a good idea to start off with the class that gives the most hit points to start out with. Otherwise you could be looking at a 8th level fighter dualed from a 9th level mage with 54 hit points. Not good.

And if the healing spells is your worry at the begining, the focus your druid on the healing end a bit more at the begining, and be prepared to use your paladin as an undead turner.

Or you could do like I did and have a cleric in the party that you drop once your party gets to the level that you'd like for dualing.

[NobleNick]

SirWillow,

Thanks. That was a crucial misunderstanding on my part; but I should have guessed that D&D rules would not let you so easily build a 200+ hp character!

I like your idea of removing characters from the party after they have fullfilled their mission; but don't like the lost expo.

I have coped by running four separate parties [A 6-member; and, IIRC, three (3) different 3-member parties] through. Sashii, my gnome mage/Illusionist was a member of each of these parties (I love the export/import feature!); so I only had about 12 characters, total. These are now consolidated into two parties that I am running in parallel. (One is currently on the 4th floor, and the other on the 2nd floor, of Severed Hand.) All members of the parties are close enough in expo that I can trade characters of similar level, remixing parties at will, to see what works best.

Whoa! It was here, when I posted message 249, that my avatar became a drow warrior. I have grown quite fond of the manshoon (sp?); but... progress...

Party On!


[ 11-13-2002, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]