Character advice for the new - Page 2

NobleNick · 10-30-2002, 08:30 PM

Ar-Cunin,

I say you are on the right track.

Dundee, Long time since I've seen you so lathered up about a subject. There is lots of good information in your dissertation; but I firmly disagree with your conclusion.

First off, no matter where you are in the game, if you are gaining new spell levels then a specialist mage has a tremendous advantage, since you get an extra spell at every level, INCLUDING the highest levels that you are acquiring. This means that when you are a wee little mage, just able to cast your first magic missile, you get an extra spell slot for it. So, you get two magic missiles instead of one: nice advantage. As you advance and get level 2 spells, you can throw two Aganazzar's scorchers instead of one: big advantage. When you first qualify to throw a fireball, you get 2 instead of one: BIG advantage. By the time you get to spell level 4, an extra magic missile does not mean as much as it did when you started the game; *BUT* you get two Monster Summon II spells instead of one: BIG advantage!

Yes, I wish my Illusionist could cast spell trap (GREAT spell!); but in one party I'll have 2 fighters dualing over to different schools, and in the other my bard takes up the necromancer duty; so have it covered either way. And I think that is ONE of TWO main points I'd like to make: Don't go light on magic. Make sure at least two (appropriately picked) schools are represented, so you can have it all (variety and quantity).

Point number TWO: Even if you have only one mage, specialize. When I first get level 3 spells, I'd much rather have 2 fireballs loaded into 2 slots, rather than one slot and the choice of whether to load fireball or skull trap into it! Ditto argument for each higher level, as it is acquired. And this argument holds true even for lower level spells at higher character levels: I have never felt like I have enough level 1 spell slots, and my specialist Illusionist is level 10!

I agree with you, that Illusionist is one of the better (if not the best) of specialists; or, as you might put it, the least challenged. However, a Conjuror is second in line, in my book *IF* she is the second magic user (i.e., you have another FULL magic user in the party). Yes, a lot of the direct damage spells are unavailable, and magic missile and fireball are tough ones to live without (hence the second magic user); but you do get skull trap, and the ability to summon is a very powerful offensive AND defensive tool...

A wad of goblins can plug a corridor and (this is important) bunch up the enemy much more effectively than web, entangle and grease all put together. Then throw your skull trap right in the middle (I virtually always use skull trap offensively): OUCH!!! That must have hurt!! Heh, heh. Since we've specialized and have that extra skull trap, let's do it again.... Goblins are good meat shields, too, even in the middle stages of the game (e.g., Severed Hand), when each goes "Poof!" in one hit. Of course, in the later game, you get summons that are much more effective than goblins and fire beetles. And if you have specialized, you get more of 'em....

To summarize:

*IF* you ground rule that there will more than one significant magic user (2 mages, or a mage and a bard, etc.), *THEN* I say it is a no-brainer: specialize.

*IF* you ground rule that there will only be one magic user in the party (bad starting position, I say) *THEN* I guess the decision of whether to specialize or not is philosophical: If the worry about what you DON'T have is going to outweigh the glee over the extra amount of what you DO have, then go general. I, however, will specialize.

Party On!

Gammit · 10-30-2002, 11:39 PM

Yeah, I actually tried having two magic-user specialists my first time through (one illusionist, and one necromancer). I enjoyed the extra spell slot, but not enough to warrant my weak offensive illusionist, or my weak defensive necromancer. Who knows, maybe I just played these characters poorly. Howerver, in retrospect, I still say go with 1 bard, and 1 general magic user. It was so much nicer for me.

Dundee Slaytern · 10-31-2002, 05:09 AM

NobleNick, I guess it is my fault to neglect to say that I am playing on Heart of Fury mode. Trust me when I say that by the time I actually gain access to level 4 spells, my General Mage will have more than 2 spell slots at spell level 4, and then some at level 5... ...

I will agree that it is better to specialise if you are playing on Core or lower level difficulties, but at the higher level difficulties, scrolls are still sparse, but Xp is not. When a Mage and the Bard has to argue over who should scribe the scroll, it can really be depressing. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

When I first completed IWD:HoW, it was on Core Difficulty, and I used a Necromancer and Bard combo. Now that I play on HoF mode permanently though, I will have nothing else but a General Mage, because darn it all! I have the spell slots, but not the spells!!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I spent hours working out what should be my six-people party on paper first, and it occured to me that there was no point to having more than one Mage, because I have a Bard already, and scrolls are barely existent as it is already.

Like the fact that there is only one set of Conjure Air/Fire/Earth Elemental... *sob*... ...

This is my personal ideal party. It suits my own playstyle, so others may view it differently from me.

Human Paladin, Sirius Black:
----
The lone sufferer. [img]tongue.gif[/img] He is the one, the only, party member to tank it out in front. On the bright side, he gets all the best equipment such as the best armour, items with physical resistances, items with AC bonuses and elemental resistances.

His default AC can easily reach -12 and lower. With spells and such, his AC can stay at -20 and lower for as long as 3 minutes or more. Theoretically, his AC can reach -30 and lower, but I doubt the game caters to that kind of AC.

Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger, Robin Clym:
----
The party's witchdoctor, and secondary Druid. Needless to say, he is the source of the party's magical steroids. When he is done casting, Sirius is for all purposes, a God in the frontlines.

He is also one of the party Healers, but it is not his main role. When he runs out of spells( highly unlikely), he resorts to slinging bullets. He only resorts to a melee weapons when absolutely necessary.

Robin Clym is also the party's secondary summoner.

Half-Elf Fighter/Druid, Great Bear:
----
He is the party's primary Druid and is the main summoner. He casts a lot of Static Charges, Sunscorches, Alicorn Lances, Sol's Searing Orb( they should rename it Sol's Bazooka [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) and summons such as Winter Wolves, Polar Bears, etc... ...

As with Robin Clym, Great Bear prefers to sling it out with bullets, and only resorts to melee when necessary.

Halfling Fighter/Thief, Stealthy:
----
He is the Thief. He is the Archer. That is all that needs to be said.

Human Mage, Gramps:
----
100% direct damage offensive Mage. Got a target that is vulnerable to magic? Gramps is there to make it feels the pain. I love the script I made for Gramps, I can actually let him do whatever he wants without worrying that he will do stupid things.

I mean... *GASP!* A Mage that will not use fire-based spells on targets that are immuned to fire. Could it be? Oh yeah... ...

Gramps is not all about offense though. He does have spells such as Mirror Image, Blur, Emotion:Whatever, Mind Blank, etc... to help himself and the party.

Half-Elf Bard, Jasmine:
----
War Chant of Sith. It is enough. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

NobleNick · 10-31-2002, 10:12 AM

Heh, heh, well spoken, Dundee.

Maybe I just don't know what I am talking about, having only progressed to Severed Hand with one party and towrds the end of Dragon's Eye with two others, all three on standard difficulty. I still definitely prefer Specialist: Don't even own a generalist in any of my parties, unless you count the bard. Maybe I'll revisit this when my mages have more fuzz on their derriers.

Oh, and I've been thinking about the Conjuror. She was my second choice, after Illusionist; *BUT* I don't know if I made it clear that I only made that choice because I already had an Illusionist, and the Conjuror was a great complement. Actually, I planned out the party from the beginning to have three mages. (This was before I got HoW, so the bard and druid were out.) I was also thinking about how I'd use her, and was (and still am) planning to dual over from high-level fighter. By the time she gets fighter skills back, she'll also have blur and mirror image. So should be a dynamite melee character. *BUT* this was all my specific planning for my specific party, which will eventually have THREE (3) mage schools represented in the party! If I mix in the bard from my other parallel party I could have FOUR (4!!) magic users!!!

I plan to get around the "Not enough spells" thing by running parallel games; but understand your concern, since Sashii has 3 empty level 5 slots. This option (parallel games) would not be open to a truly purist roleplayer; and you seem to be closer to this end of the spectrum than I. I view my adventurers as transcending any one game, and truly enjoy going back to parts of the game that were very hard, and beating the snot out of those turkeys.

All the above said, I have to agree with your post: that a specialist Conjuror is not a good choice for a party that has only ONE magic user. The conjuring skills are VERY useful; but you can conjure without having a Conjuror; and the loss of magic missile and fireball are a bit too much to bear. I, like you, would go with Illusionist.

I enjoyed reading your party list. Maybe my party will come more into alignment with yours when I enter HoF mode!

Party On!

[ 10-31-2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

Roboghost · 11-13-2002, 05:58 PM

My favorite party and early weapons as help (HoF mode only):

Tank power:
Dwarf Fighter: Axe (+1 from certain skeletons in Tomb then +2 Defender & Throwing Axe); Hammer; Crossbow (early only)
Gnome Fighter: Large Sword (+1 then +2 Confusion); Mace; Crossbow

"Helm of the Trusted Defender" (Haste spell!) --in case you ask "why the Gnome?"

Note1: Max out Axe and Sword then:
Dwarf: Hammer then Crossbow (late game help)
Gnome: Equal points to Mace and Crossbow--finishing to grand maser on the Mace

Note2: Hammer and Mace equals Skeleton-crunching power (start with one for the Ranger below as well--Mace or Flail)

Missile power:
Elf Ranger: Large Sword; Bow (+2 Defender then The Black Bow)
Halfling Fighter/Thief: Theify hack 'n bonk weapons; Sling (early); Bow (Messenger of Sseth) --it's a more thief-like weapon...right?

Magic power:
Half-Elf Druid: Staff (Nature's Wrath); Sling (+1 or greater)
Elf Mage: Staff (greater reach) then Mage daggers; Sling (+1 or greater)

I want certain random items, so I "cheat"--but at the same time I earn them. I'll fight the battles over and over (a pain in HoF) until I "GET ME SOME"!

10-30-2002, 11:39 PM	#12
Gammit Elminster Join Date: October 26, 2001 Location: Sterling Heights, MI, USA Age: 46 Posts: 477	Yeah, I actually tried having two magic-user specialists my first time through (one illusionist, and one necromancer). I enjoyed the extra spell slot, but not enough to warrant my weak offensive illusionist, or my weak defensive necromancer. Who knows, maybe I just played these characters poorly. Howerver, in retrospect, I still say go with 1 bard, and 1 general magic user. It was so much nicer for me. __________________ IW resident science and mathematics teacher<br /><br />\"No, no, you\'re not thinking; you\'re just being logical.\"<br />-Niels Bohr

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10-30-2002, 08:30 PM	#11
NobleNick Quintesson Join Date: February 5, 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL, USA Age: 63 Posts: 1,045	Ar-Cunin, I say you are on the right track. Dundee, Long time since I've seen you so lathered up about a subject. There is lots of good information in your dissertation; but I firmly disagree with your conclusion. First off, no matter where you are in the game, if you are gaining new spell levels then a specialist mage has a tremendous advantage, since you get an extra spell at every level, INCLUDING the highest levels that you are acquiring. This means that when you are a wee little mage, just able to cast your first magic missile, you get an extra spell slot for it. So, you get two magic missiles instead of one: nice advantage. As you advance and get level 2 spells, you can throw two Aganazzar's scorchers instead of one: big advantage. When you first qualify to throw a fireball, you get 2 instead of one: BIG advantage. By the time you get to spell level 4, an extra magic missile does not mean as much as it did when you started the game; BUT you get two Monster Summon II spells instead of one: BIG advantage! Yes, I wish my Illusionist could cast spell trap (GREAT spell!); but in one party I'll have 2 fighters dualing over to different schools, and in the other my bard takes up the necromancer duty; so have it covered either way. And I think that is ONE of TWO main points I'd like to make: Don't go light on magic. Make sure at least two (appropriately picked) schools are represented, so you can have it all (variety and quantity). Point number TWO: Even if you have only one mage, specialize. When I first get level 3 spells, I'd much rather have 2 fireballs loaded into 2 slots, rather than one slot and the choice of whether to load fireball or skull trap into it! Ditto argument for each higher level, as it is acquired. And this argument holds true even for lower level spells at higher character levels: I have never felt like I have enough level 1 spell slots, and my specialist Illusionist is level 10! I agree with you, that Illusionist is one of the better (if not the best) of specialists; or, as you might put it, the least challenged. However, a Conjuror is second in line, in my book IF she is the second magic user (i.e., you have another FULL magic user in the party). Yes, a lot of the direct damage spells are unavailable, and magic missile and fireball are tough ones to live without (hence the second magic user); but you do get skull trap, and the ability to summon is a very powerful offensive AND defensive tool... A wad of goblins can plug a corridor and (this is important) bunch up the enemy much more effectively than web, entangle and grease all put together. Then throw your skull trap right in the middle (I virtually always use skull trap offensively): OUCH!!! That must have hurt!! Heh, heh. Since we've specialized and have that extra skull trap, let's do it again.... Goblins are good meat shields, too, even in the middle stages of the game (e.g., Severed Hand), when each goes "Poof!" in one hit. Of course, in the later game, you get summons that are much more effective than goblins and fire beetles. And if you have specialized, you get more of 'em.... To summarize: IF you ground rule that there will more than one significant magic user (2 mages, or a mage and a bard, etc.), THEN I say it is a no-brainer: specialize. IF you ground rule that there will only be one magic user in the party (bad starting position, I say) THEN I guess the decision of whether to specialize or not is philosophical: If the worry about what you DON'T have is going to outweigh the glee over the extra amount of what you DO have, then go general. I, however, will specialize. Party On!

10-31-2002, 05:09 AM	#13
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 41 Posts: 11,063	NobleNick, I guess it is my fault to neglect to say that I am playing on Heart of Fury mode. Trust me when I say that by the time I actually gain access to level 4 spells, my General Mage will have more than 2 spell slots at spell level 4, and then some at level 5... ... I will agree that it is better to specialise if you are playing on Core or lower level difficulties, but at the higher level difficulties, scrolls are still sparse, but Xp is not. When a Mage and the Bard has to argue over who should scribe the scroll, it can really be depressing. [img]tongue.gif[/img] When I first completed IWD:HoW, it was on Core Difficulty, and I used a Necromancer and Bard combo. Now that I play on HoF mode permanently though, I will have nothing else but a General Mage, because darn it all! I have the spell slots, but not the spells!!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] I spent hours working out what should be my six-people party on paper first, and it occured to me that there was no point to having more than one Mage, because I have a Bard already, and scrolls are barely existent as it is already. Like the fact that there is only one set of Conjure Air/Fire/Earth Elemental... sob... ... This is my personal ideal party. It suits my own playstyle, so others may view it differently from me. Human Paladin, Sirius Black: ---- The lone sufferer. [img]tongue.gif[/img] He is the one, the only, party member to tank it out in front. On the bright side, he gets all the best equipment such as the best armour, items with physical resistances, items with AC bonuses and elemental resistances. His default AC can easily reach -12 and lower. With spells and such, his AC can stay at -20 and lower for as long as 3 minutes or more. Theoretically, his AC can reach -30 and lower, but I doubt the game caters to that kind of AC. Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger, Robin Clym: ---- The party's witchdoctor, and secondary Druid. Needless to say, he is the source of the party's magical steroids. When he is done casting, Sirius is for all purposes, a God in the frontlines. He is also one of the party Healers, but it is not his main role. When he runs out of spells( highly unlikely), he resorts to slinging bullets. He only resorts to a melee weapons when absolutely necessary. Robin Clym is also the party's secondary summoner. Half-Elf Fighter/Druid, Great Bear: ---- He is the party's primary Druid and is the main summoner. He casts a lot of Static Charges, Sunscorches, Alicorn Lances, Sol's Searing Orb( they should rename it Sol's Bazooka [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) and summons such as Winter Wolves, Polar Bears, etc... ... As with Robin Clym, Great Bear prefers to sling it out with bullets, and only resorts to melee when necessary. Halfling Fighter/Thief, Stealthy: ---- He is the Thief. He is the Archer. That is all that needs to be said. Human Mage, Gramps: ---- 100% direct damage offensive Mage. Got a target that is vulnerable to magic? Gramps is there to make it feels the pain. I love the script I made for Gramps, I can actually let him do whatever he wants without worrying that he will do stupid things. I mean... GASP! A Mage that will not use fire-based spells on targets that are immuned to fire. Could it be? Oh yeah... ... Gramps is not all about offense though. He does have spells such as Mirror Image, Blur, Emotion:Whatever, Mind Blank, etc... to help himself and the party. Half-Elf Bard, Jasmine: ---- War Chant of Sith. It is enough. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

10-31-2002, 10:12 AM	#14
NobleNick Quintesson Join Date: February 5, 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL, USA Age: 63 Posts: 1,045	Heh, heh, well spoken, Dundee. Maybe I just don't know what I am talking about, having only progressed to Severed Hand with one party and towrds the end of Dragon's Eye with two others, all three on standard difficulty. I still definitely prefer Specialist: Don't even own a generalist in any of my parties, unless you count the bard. Maybe I'll revisit this when my mages have more fuzz on their derriers. Oh, and I've been thinking about the Conjuror. She was my second choice, after Illusionist; BUT I don't know if I made it clear that I only made that choice because I already had an Illusionist, and the Conjuror was a great complement. Actually, I planned out the party from the beginning to have three mages. (This was before I got HoW, so the bard and druid were out.) I was also thinking about how I'd use her, and was (and still am) planning to dual over from high-level fighter. By the time she gets fighter skills back, she'll also have blur and mirror image. So should be a dynamite melee character. BUT this was all my specific planning for my specific party, which will eventually have THREE (3) mage schools represented in the party! If I mix in the bard from my other parallel party I could have FOUR (4!!) magic users!!! I plan to get around the "Not enough spells" thing by running parallel games; but understand your concern, since Sashii has 3 empty level 5 slots. This option (parallel games) would not be open to a truly purist roleplayer; and you seem to be closer to this end of the spectrum than I. I view my adventurers as transcending any one game, and truly enjoy going back to parts of the game that were very hard, and beating the snot out of those turkeys. All the above said, I have to agree with your post: that a specialist Conjuror is not a good choice for a party that has only ONE magic user. The conjuring skills are VERY useful; but you can conjure without having a Conjuror; and the loss of magic missile and fireball are a bit too much to bear. I, like you, would go with Illusionist. I enjoyed reading your party list. Maybe my party will come more into alignment with yours when I enter HoF mode! Party On! [ 10-31-2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

11-13-2002, 05:58 PM	#15
Roboghost Manshoon Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: California Posts: 216	My favorite party and early weapons as help (HoF mode only): Tank power: Dwarf Fighter: Axe (+1 from certain skeletons in Tomb then +2 Defender & Throwing Axe); Hammer; Crossbow (early only) Gnome Fighter: Large Sword (+1 then +2 Confusion); Mace; Crossbow "Helm of the Trusted Defender" (Haste spell!) --in case you ask "why the Gnome?" Note1: Max out Axe and Sword then: Dwarf: Hammer then Crossbow (late game help) Gnome: Equal points to Mace and Crossbow--finishing to grand maser on the Mace Note2: Hammer and Mace equals Skeleton-crunching power (start with one for the Ranger below as well--Mace or Flail) Missile power: Elf Ranger: Large Sword; Bow (+2 Defender then The Black Bow) Halfling Fighter/Thief: Theify hack 'n bonk weapons; Sling (early); Bow (Messenger of Sseth) --it's a more thief-like weapon...right? Magic power: Half-Elf Druid: Staff (Nature's Wrath); Sling (+1 or greater) Elf Mage: Staff (greater reach) then Mage daggers; Sling (+1 or greater) I want certain random items, so I "cheat"--but at the same time I earn them. I'll fight the battles over and over (a pain in HoF) until I "GET ME SOME"!

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