I am not a Pacifist

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Ryanamur, I think this is possibly the best post I have seen on this topic since we all started discussing and debating it. Your clarity is awesome. Your point regarding the economy - yes, and not just America's! All over the world, countries that have committed to liberalisation of trade, who have borrowed money to develop, and who have contracts with America are suffering already. (I edit a business retail site, and the stories that are coming in are full of woe.) Many of these countries have huge debts (which they took out to finance development so they could compete in world markets), and rely on exports to pay them. Where some of them are now is called up shit creek without a paddle, where I come from. (Globalisation of trade = dangerous dependencies, in my view, - as we are now seeing. But that's a whole other topic...)

Thanks for the support. Yes, when I was talking about our economy, I meant Western Economy. This terrorist attack will have major ripple effects. In fact, I think that my 10x number is unrealisticly optimistic (note: that number would only be for the US). We took a deep hit. We're down on one knee, holding our groin and we're not doing anything to help our situation.


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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Ryanamur, I think this is possibly the best post I have seen on this topic since we all started discussing and debating it. Your clarity is awesome. Your point regarding the economy - yes, and not just America's! All over the world, countries that have committed to liberalisation of trade, who have borrowed money to develop, and who have contracts with America are suffering already. (I edit a business retail site, and the stories that are coming in are full of woe.) Many of these countries have huge debts (which they took out to finance development so they could compete in world markets), and rely on exports to pay them. Where some of them are now is called up shit creek without a paddle, where I come from. (Globalisation of trade = dangerous dependencies, in my view, - as we are now seeing. But that's a whole other topic...)

Silver, you're not exactly correct there. American investors (mainly groups, not individuals) pulled out of US companies, and invested in European companies because of the perception of Europe as safe, and that is is independant of American fluctuation. Things are very different to the great depression when America down, meant the world down. The Euro has also been rising independently of the US (and the Aussie) dollar.

Ryanmur, I think you're missing the things the goverment is doing to help stabilise the airline industry, and the economy as a whole. The focus has been far more than just Bin Laden.

Just the other day Bush announced measures to increase air security from Air marshalls, stronger doors, federal training for security etc etc. This was publicly announced to increase confidence in air travel - the lack of which is responsible for the airline industries' dire situation. Couple this with bailouts and packages to bolster the industry, a huge funding package to rebuild New York, dropped interest rates, public encouragements to visit the theatre and live how you normally would, and you have a government very concerned with getting the economy back on track. To claim no realisation on their part is an error.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Ed]

Um...... OK. I think that was fairly definate....

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The REAL Minsc/Boo double act .....


Platinum Fighter of ALSB

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Yorick: Ryanmur, I think you're missing the things the goverment is doing to help stabilise the airline industry, and the economy as a whole. The focus has been far more than just Bin Laden. Just the other day Bush announced measures to increase air security from Air marshalls, stronger doors, federal training for security etc etc. This was publicly announced to increase confidence in air travel - the lack of which is responsible for it's dire situation. Couple this with bailouts and packages to bolster the industry, a huge funding package to rebuild New York, dropped interest rates, public encouragements to visit the theatre and live how you normally would, and you have a government very concerned with getting the economy back on track. To claim no realisation on their part is an error.

OK, the Government is helping a bit with the airline industry. Now, my question to you is who's responsible for national security issues? If I'm not wrong, it's the government. What we have here is a government that is helping but that is not ready to acknowledge a direct failure to perform to expected standards, a government who's not ready to take responsibility for it's lack of performance, a government who's not ready to guarantee stability and pay for damages done because of the lack of professionnalism of some of its employes and a government who is not ready to prosecute those individuals that have ingnored warning signs for the last decade. By not providing security to both the people and economy, the government as put us all at risk.

However, I have to be fair. This is not solely the fault of the Government (aside from the guilt laying at the feet of the terrorists), part of the guilt also rest on Society itself for it's failure to accept reality and because it wasn't ready to peak out of it's little soap bubble (and we're just starting to look around 'cause believe it or not, that soap bubble hasn't been broken yet).

No, what the government needs to do is first of all go through a cleansing process. Get rid of all the crap that's incapable of taking the decisions that need to be taken and replace it with elements that are not political sluts, are capable and ready to actually make the though decisions. We need to actually adopt the idea of "for the good of the many" rather than "for my good and that of those that support me".

Now, back to the original airline issue. What as been done is peanuts. Yes, we will now have airmarshalls on flights, security will be taken over by a federal agency, new metal doors, etc. etc... That's what people wanted: a sense of security: out of all the new "so called" security measures, the only ones that will really help are airport security taken over by the Feds (if the standards are high enough... 'cause they're not yet) and the metal doors. Having Air Marshalls on board of aircrafts is ludicrus. The idea is to have a plane that is sterile, not to have a weapon in the cabin.

Also, just to prove to which point this is only a facade, what as been done about the commuter planes and small business jets. Absolutely nothing (unless I'm wrong). Those planes, even if they haven't been used to commit a terrorist act could now become the weapon of choice for the simple fact that most of those small commuters operate on privately owned hangar and are more easilly accessible than commercial jetliner. 4-5 of them could probably do the same effect.

Now, about the money: injecting 5 billion + 10 billion in loan guarantees doesn't do ****. What those company really need if a nice blank cheque to continue operations like they were before the attack. But the government is not ready to do that because it costs too much. Guess what now, where stuck with 125,000 people that are out of a job even with a 15 billion injection. Now, those people are not spending anymore, that means that business is going down, which leads to more layoffs and the whell just keeps turning.

Yes, the government says it's concerned about the economy and everything but it's not ready to take the actions that need to be taken. Maybe to claim that they do not realize what's going on is an error but to claim that they are not willing to do what needs to be done certainly isn't.

Encouragements don't do Jack. What the world needs right now is Action.


BTW: I'm not an expert on terrorism or the world economy but I'm a commercial pilot and I know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about that industry. The Aviation industry itself was and is still very safe.
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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: Silver, you're not exactly correct there. American investors (mainly groups, not individuals) pulled out of US companies, and invested in European companies because of the perception of Europe as safe, and that is is independant of American fluctuation. Things are very different to the great depression when America down, meant the world down. The Euro has also been rising independently of the US (and the Aussie) dollar. Ryanmur, I think you're missing the things the goverment is doing to help stabilise the airline industry, and the economy as a whole. The focus has been far more than just Bin Laden. Just the other day Bush announced measures to increase air security from Air marshalls, stronger doors, federal training for security etc etc. This was publicly announced to increase confidence in air travel - the lack of which is responsible for the airline industries' dire situation. Couple this with bailouts and packages to bolster the industry, a huge funding package to rebuild New York, dropped interest rates, public encouragements to visit the theatre and live how you normally would, and you have a government very concerned with getting the economy back on track. To claim no realisation on their part is an error.

Sorry Yorick, perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm talking about countries such as Bulgaria, Vietnam, Taiwan etc who export a huge amount to the Amerian market. Some American companies have had to suspend contract renewal to their suppliers/manufacturers based in developing countries, as a result of the current uncertainty about the American and global economy. (I'm talking about textiles and garment trade here, but I'm assuming other sectors are similarly affected). What I'm saying is that some of companies affected are having problems as a result of what has happened, and some may go out of business.


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Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us

[Ryanamur]

In this statement that I made above:
No, what the government needs to do is first of all go through a cleansing process. Get rid of all the crap that's incapable of taking the decisions that need to be taken and replace it with elements that are not political sluts, are capable and ready to actually make the though decisions. We need to actually adopt the idea of "for the good of the many" rather than "for my good and that of those that support me".

I should've added that of course the population must be ready to vote for these individuals.

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: Encouragements don't do Jack. What the world needs right now is Action.

Ryanmur, lack of consumer confidence is a large factor in what causes a recession. Encouragement is action.

I don't have the time to reply to your post, but I'll say I disagree. Check out CNNs financial spots for a start if you don't believe me.

I stand by my statement that the Government is not purely focussed on Bin Laden, and that the economy is high on the agenda. Policies that are not up to your standard of response does not mean it is not there. This will take ages to combat. There is no "quick fix". It will be at least twelve months before ground zero is cleared.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 09-28-2001).]

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Yorick: Ryanmur, lack of consumer confidence is a large factor in what causes a recession. Encouragement is action. I don't have the time to reply to your post, but I'll say I disagree. Check out CNNs financial spots for a start if you don't believe me. I stand by my statement that the Government is not purely focussed on Bin Laden, and that the economy is high on the agenda. Policies that are not up to your standard of response does not mean it is not there. This will take ages to combat. There is no "quick fix". It will be at least twelve months before ground zero is cleared.

This is what I love about this board. We can dissagree and still be civil to one another

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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?

[Reeka]

Originally posted by Nachtrafe: *The sound of loud applause is clearly heard throughout the room* Awesome Post!!! And, my most sincere condolences for what happened to you. *HUGS* if you want em.

Thank you for the condolences and hugs.


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Order of the Holy Flame
Member of Clan HADB
Laughing Hyena
Clan Illuminati

[Sir Taliesin]

Man oh man! So many great points here from all sides!!! Where do I start? Yorick, I agree with you on the economy. I heard the other day that the Government is looking at spending somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 billion dollatrs to help the economy. That's in addition to the 15 billion dollar billout of the airlines. It will take time to pull the economy up. I figure like you, about a year. I also think the economy was going down prior to the terrorist attack. That just speeded things up a bit, which means it'll just come back faster! People will settle down again in a few weeks and start buying again. Let's face it if you have a job (which if you go by the latest unemployment numbers is somewhere in the realm of 95%) now is diffinately the time to buy a house! Interest rates are incredibly low. Great time to buy a car too. Most of the American cars manufacturers are offering 0% financing.
The economy will turn around.

I also agree with Silver Cheeta. The third world nations are going to be hurt too, by this. Orders are down on most products. But that will change too. Christmas is just around the corner and we will start buying again. Wait and see.

Great post Mennoch!!!



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Sir Taliesin



If they take my gun can I still use my Axe?