Starting HoW

[Spiff]

Hi all, I'm playing through for the first time and was wondering when to start the expansion. I did a bit of searching and people recommended starting it in the middle of dorns deep or when everyone is level 9. Nobody really answered the question of game balance though, does doing the expansion earlier make the main game too easy? Does doing the expansion later in the game make the start of it too easy?

I just recovered the heartstone gem and my party ranges between levels 11 and 7/8/8. Would people recommend I start the expansion now or wait? Like I said, my biggest concern is that I'm going to do the expansion too early and then be leveled up higher than I should for the next section of the main story, making it too easy, or end up starting it too late and just breeze through the begining of the expansion.

[Mellagar]

You can start HoW just about anytime you want, so long as you are of level 9 or higher. As far as being too strong, or weak, I myself plan to finish Icewind Dale without HoW, then play the expansion.

[Aerich]

Start the expansion whenever you feel like it. If you start it after finishing Dorn's Deep, you will have lots of cool magic items to make the expansion easier (although that works the opposite way as well). OTOH, if you get all the rockin' stuff from Dorn's, you may not want some of the items in HOW.

However, it shouldn't really matter, and many people start HOW as soon as they can while others play HOW after they've finished the entirety of IWD. Whichever way you choose, if you decide it's too easy you can increase the difficulty level and get a challenging gaming experience that way.

[Aerich]

Oh yes, forgot to tell you...

I've heard that the first fights in HOW are pretty tough, so the lvl 9 requirement is considered a bit low. That's the reason why many people typically go most of the way through IWD first (e.g. have collected all the b_____). I guess it saves them the frustration of reloading several times to get past an area.

If you post a detailed list of your party composition and levels, maybe some of the experienced gamers here can offer their thoughts on your chances of success.

[Spiff]

I didn't realize that you can go back to the main game once you start the expansion so I went on to severed hand to play it safe. Havn't gotten very far in it yet, just cleared the lower levels and was about to try exporing some of the towers. Now that I found out I can go between the expansion and the main story line I might go and check it out.

My party consists of the following.
lvl 8/8 cleric ranger using hammering flail +2 and sling +1

lvl 9 paladin using long sword of confusion +2 and messenger of sseth

lvl 9 fighter (will dual to cleric later) using fast flail +2

lvl 8/8/9 fighter mage thief using 2-hs of hammering +2 and huge long bow

lvl 8/10 fighter druid using scimatar +1 and sling +1

lvl 11 bard mostly sings but has been known to get into it with a light xbow of defense and battle axe +2 defender

I've been playing on insane (can't resist the extra exp [img]smile.gif[/img] I havn't found the game easy at all so far, but the only battle that I really had a hard time with was the fight with Yuxnomei. So any advice on how you think the expansion will go would be appreciated.

[Roboghost]

If you go all the way through IWD first, a Dwarf will beef up a certain sword for you in HOW that can only be acquired near the end of IWD (as well as adding dialogue options in HOW).

If you have several Large Sword users in your game, then it would be worth it, but if you only have one or two...
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A Paladin = "Pale Justice" (+4 and +7 evil)
A Fighter = "Long Sword of Action +4" (+1 attack)
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The beefed up sword is...
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a +5, so it is the only pure +5 large sword in the game. If you were to replace the Paladin with another large sword Fighter, then it would be worth it for sure [lots of good large swords in game: Confusion, Fire, and a +3 here and there.]

[Aerich]

Spiff,
I'd recommend *at least* finishing the Severed Hand before heading to HOW. There's a whole bunch of useful spells, armor, weapons and items in there; the place is loaded. For best results, I'd also do the first couple areas of Dorn's Deep as well. Since you're playing on Insane, you will really, really appreciate the elemental summoning scrolls you can buy there. I prefer to go through most of Lower Dorn's as well, as there are some awesome weapons there, and if you get them before HOW, you get more time to play with them =)

Your party looks like it will do well in HOW. It's a hack'n'slash extravaganza, and you have lots of fighter-types with good backup skills to help the combat along. The only concern I have would be with your fighter-that-will-be-dualed-to-cleric. I really don't see any point in gaining any fighter levels past 9 (some hold on until lvl 13 for the extra 1/2 attack/round, but I don't have the patience for that). At fighter lvl 9, you get the maximum benefit from warrior's HP and the HP bonus. After you reach 9th lvl, you only gain those piddling 3 HP/level. I would dual the fighter over to cleric now, then level him up in cleric enough to gain your fighter levels back for HOW. That gives you the advantage of having two extra-capable melee tanks with good priest spells (not counting the paladin or the fighter/druid, who also rock). You'll need those priest spells.

HOW doesn't let you in unless each character is lvl 9 or above. I'm not sure if that is adjusted if you play on insane. In any case, if you don't play through Lower Dorn's you may find yourself lowering the difficulty for HOW. A party of lvl 9 doing HOW on insane = big time ouch.

[Spiff]

I like your advice aerich, if there's some nice loot in severed hand I'd like to pick it up first and use it through the expansion. That does seem to be the point of the game after all. Kill baddies, level up, find neat gear, rinse and repeat.

I did think about dualing the fighter to cleric at 9 but figured I'd wait since there should be plenty of experience to level him to 30 as a cleric. It is just a matter of when he'd get there.

I am thinking about swaping out the paladin for another character though. I only put him in because I wanted six characters and didn't know what to do for the last one. I've been a bit dissapointed with the paladin too, the better saves are nice, but the lay on hands and other abilities havn't been all that useful so far. I havn't noticed paladin specific dialog options showing up either, but then again I usually have the bard talk to people. If there is enough exp to get a f/m/t or f/m/c up to lvl 30 then it seems like a waste just to use a single class character.
I was thinking of starting a fighter and later dualing to something else. I seem pretty covered on theif skills with the f/m/t and bard. There probably won't be enough scrolls for a third arcane caster, so I'm thinking of another fighter dualed to cleric or maybe fighter dualed to druid.

Anybody have any suggestions on what I could replace the paladin with?

[Micah Foehammer]

Keep the paladin - his turn undead ability may just come in handy in HoW. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Aerich]

@ Spiff,
Yep, killin' 99% of everything in your way is the point of the game (ain't it fun?). Definitely all kinds of great loot in the Severed Hand. In comparison with Dragon's Eye (on the availability of magical items), it's like the sultan's treasure room vs. the desert.

I'd have to agree with Micah on this one. Keep the paladin. It does a lot of things well, which is its strength. Decent healer, decent tank, decent undead turning. The benefit of a paladin over a dual or multi-class F/C is the comparative speed with which it goes up levels + the ability to use swords. It will probably be a better undead turner than a F/C for quite a while. As I see it, dualing your existing F to C earlier (for more clerical spells) should enable you to keep the pally with no worries (although the idea of two fighter-druids *is* toothsome). It also seems like a waste to get a character all the way into the Severed Hand then turf him like a weak link. I don't generally dual after lvl 9, because I like to regain my previous skills sooner rather than later. I know there's lots of people out there who like to make dual-class F/whatever that are lvl 29/30. I personally prefer to be able to access all of my characters' skills for as much of the game as I can, balancing that consideration against the improved Thac0 and HP that comes from dualling later.

Seriously, I would keep the paladin. A fighter-type with minor clerical powers (for not much of an experience hit) is great. One thing you could do is memorize strictly combat-application spells with him; use Command or Hold Person to debilitate enemy archers and spellcasters (then run over and chop them down at close range), use Bless before combat, Magical Stone against undead, and most importantly DRAW UPON HOLY MIGHT! A 9th level paladin using that spell has his Str, Dex and Con raised by three each! To make your pally into the fighter of doom, drink a potion of Str, a potion of Dex (or cast Cat's Grace) and possibly a potion of fortitude (if Con isn't already 18). *Then* cast Draw Upon Holy Might, haste that pally, and watch him work...

With reference to dialogue options and weapons:

SPOILERS AHEAD
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1) Kuldahar
if you talk to the people of Kuldahar before finishing the Vale of Shadows with a paladin or cleric, sometimes they tell you about Kresselack. After the whole rigamarole of every single person being afraid of you (you'd think everyone would know that there are strangers in town, all they seem to do is stand around and talk), a cleric can ask about Kresselack's priests and identify them as Bonedancers. A pally can talk about Kresselack's leadership and find out about his sword. Both options give a garnet, which is good money for that stage of the game. *Note: try each villager twice. Sometimes they don't give you the Kresselack dialogue option on the first try. I've received as many as ten garnets in total.

2) Vale of Shadows
Talk to Mytos (the Bonedancer priest on first level of Kresselack's tomb) with the paladin and get talking philosophically about necromancy. It gives a bit of extra experience, which is nice.

3) Frost Giant Lair
BIG EXPERIENCE. Talk to Joril with the paladin: it will give you the option of demanding that he release the prisoners. Take that option, as I believe it is worth 6 digit XP! (Around 140-180 thousand, iirc)

4) Lower Dorn's Deep (Bard dialogue)
In the garden, talk to the gnome that is working on a statue. Get the portrait, and enter Marketh's palace. Once you enter, go forward and take out the thieves, but don't enter any rooms yet. At the very end of the hall (across from the staircase leading to the next floor) is a room containing the more scholarly henchman of Marketh (iirc, his name is Floozum). Use the bard, commiserate with him, and suggest that he could be a bard. He will drop all his gear and leave without a fight, also giving you some hefty quest experience. *Note, he will be automatically hostile if you kill his brother before speaking to him (his brother is in the first room past the entrance).

5) Lower Dorn's (AKA the reason to take a paladin)
In Malavon's area (with umber hulks and blind minotaurs) you can (always) find the Pale Justice, a paladin-specific longsword that is the best sword in the game. It gives immunity to charm and fear spells, but more importantly is +7 to attack and damage against evil creatures.

End result: many good reasons to keep a paladin, and many ways to make him (or her) more effective. But do what you feel like doing. There are really no bad classes or class combinations (reserving judgment on the single-class thief), you just have to be willing to give them some levels, minimize their weaknesses and experiment with tactics.