Religion

[Grungi]

if you dont agree with major points in a religion then leave it, dont pretend to keep on following it... thats why i say its bullshit. And as i said previously religion is meant to be perfection as its gods ideals therefore everything a religion states should be perfection, disagree with any of it and you cant follow that religion (obviously religion is not perfect which lends credence to my argument that religion comes from humans and NOT from divine beings)

well as for the devil IMO if there was a devil and a god the really evil people going to hell would actually like it, it would be the majority of sinners who went to hell that would have eternal problems because of what they perceive good and evil to be so their own judgements would condemn them, hell if it existed is unlikely to be the faustian hellfire and eternal tortures, thats all actually derived from greek mythology rather than original christian ideas hell would be you on your own trapped with knowledge for eternity of things you'd rather not know , hell is basically yourself. my actual believe in life after death is that your conciousness (or soul for religious types), lives on in the afterlife and believes what it wants to believe as it has no corpoeral form it can do nothing but be trapped within itself, if you thought you were a sinner adn believed in hell then your in for a world of eternal hurt, some may come back as ghosts some even reincarnate, as for me as thats what i believe in im fervently going for busty babes and eternal computer games [img]smile.gif[/img]

[LordKathen]

[img]graemlins/superdude.gif[/img] rock on Callum! I could not have said It better myself. What you said was one sided, duh!. What do they want, for you to argue both sides by yourself? [img]graemlins/headshake.gif[/img] I am an athiest, and dont care what anyone says the other way. You cant prove it! At least I have science to back up evolution. Why is there a moon or mars, why is there moss, why are there ants? Its "gods big plan" says a christian. Thats fine, but I choose to keep a free thinking mind to choose to not beleive in fantasy. www.darwinawards.com

You are all free to your opinion and so am I. If any christians out there want to question my morals click on my site below and email me, please. [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img]

http://hometown.aol.com/sirkathen/my...e/profile.html

[The Hierophant]

I can't help but ask what people's definitions of 'science' and 'religion' are in light of what is stated in this thread. I can't come up with any decent definitions myself so I'm wondering what others have to say about this.

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Eisenschwarz: There are many incidences of Christians torturing people, The Pope and the Catholic Church officially supported torture from the 1200?s to the 1700?s. It wasn?t until 1816 that pope Pius VII issued a papal bull ending the catholic chrurchs endorsement of torture.

Right, so, people were tortured as a means of conversion some 800-300 years ago and then the church decided to officially end torture by papal law in 1816. OK. Um, well, hate to break this to you man, but that was "800-300 years ago". Nowadays one would tend not to experience those sorts of conversion methods seeing as "the church decided to officially end torture by papal law in 1816" 'n all. Sorry for being sarcastic, but c'mon now, saying people in 2002 are morally questionable because of the actions of people hundreds of years in the past is simply an invalid course of argument.[/QUOTE]However it proves that the Church has been a _Very_ negative and baneful influence on humanity down through the ages.
Even today, there are many allegations that it collaborated with Mussolini and Hitler.
Not to mention it’s covering up of the endemic paedophile priests, something that happens all the time.
So I would question its morals and ethics even today.
It seems that it hasn’t improved much HTH.

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: Does anyone win an argument over religion?

Does anyone ever win an argument over anything?[/QUOTE]One could define winning arguments in terms of Kudos, Ego inflation and changes of perception by others towards the participants.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: Does anyone win an arguement over religion?

Yes!

The one who doesn't feel compelled to involve themselves in this type of argument wins every time. Of course, I've never been able to win...lol.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Eisenschwarz: quote: Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: Does anyone win an argument over religion?

Does anyone ever win an argument over anything?[/QUOTE]One could define winning arguments in terms of Kudos, Ego inflation and changes of perception by others towards the participants.[/QUOTE]Actually I would say the winner of an argument is the one that grows the most as a result. If you remain the same after an argument, it was either a waste of time, or you had your mind shut.

The person that learns the most from an argument gets the most 'bang for their buck' as it were.

Thus, many percieved 'losers' are actually the winners who gain the most.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

I Copied this Post from the "Tony Blair" thread so that I could respond to it in a more appropriate thread.

Origninally posted by Grungi: to be honest the only people left on this thread will be quite happy to respond on this thread i think so no problem continuing it here, its about 2nd world war and about religion anyway. and its funny that you can look in the past and say sacrifices of humans were a christian thing to do and incest was a christian thing to do but its completely taboo nowadays, personally i know incest is wrong and the idea of it makes me want to puke but i cannot find any good reason for why it is actually wrong apart from the fact that it almost makes me physically ill just thinking about it so what im saying is christianity has changed overtime which contradicts the religion as i see it, if religion and god is perfect in the first place then why would it change, because it changes it is something made by man therefore not to any divine being but a means to worship, people need something to believe in so they create a godlike being otherwise in the olden days they'd have gone mad without it. I believe if a religion was truly correct then it would never need to change itself as its morals and edicts would remain the same over time, perfection needs no improvement, and as god was pretty close to adam and eve and their family at the time you'd have thought he'd have frowned on the whole incest thing, as he obviously encouraged it why is incest criminal today in christian societies? God says its okay so why doesnt the christianity based law.... first time i thought of that point but boy is it a good one definately interested to hear what people have to say bout that heh btw only way you can plug alot of holes is by suggesting supernatural arguments in which case the whole argument falls down yet again as thats the crux of the whole thing, do you believe or not, basically supernatural explanations explain everything away, at least with science you have some proof but even then that gets proved wrong by the next scientist who comes along, i have trouble believing anything these days but the one thing im 100 percent sure on and believe implicitly is that i exist and that i am in control of my life and my thoughts and no god existing could create someone like me, wouldnt be possible, only way to create someone with my qualities and flaws would be random generation based on evolution therefore im not created more sorta moulded over time, i honestly dont believe anyone could (or would even want to) create someone like me let alone someone like saddam hussein or the like. Cept maybe for a laugh in which case life is one cruel joke for some godlike creatures amusement. oh and on another note, so what about cavemen? neanderthal man came before or after adam and eve?

To address the first portion of your post, Christianity has NEVER condoned nor allowed human sacrifices. The incident with Abraham and Isaac was a test by God of Abraham's faith. God never intended for Abraham to actually slay Isaac and he provided a ram to replace Isaac on the altar.

As for the issue of incest, it isn't that the religion has changed so much as society has. Some religions STILL practice Polygamy, but in the time the Old Testament was written (several thousand years ago), incest and polygamy were just a matter of simple logistics. There weren't as many people living then and most "tribes" or townsfolk were confined to a relatively small geographic region. There simply weren't that many "suitable mates" available for everybody. That's another reason there were so many wars between different tribes. Not only did the victor gain access to the resources of the defeated, but their own numbers were "trimmed down" in the process, which increased the likelihood of survival for the rest.

As for the second part of your post, you claim that no supernatural being could have created you the way you are. You believe instead that you are a "random generation of evolution". There is only one problem with that theory. If you are "randomly generated", then you should be extraordinarily unique (like an albino tiger). Yet, while I am certain your combination of personality, values, beliefs, and thougt processes may be unique.....your physical geneology is not. Fact is, there are several million others who are very similar physically to you. Therefore, it cannot be the result of "random generation"...since the "same values" keep recurring.

As for the personality, thought processes, etc...those are formed by your societal environment rather than your geneology.

Finally, I have often questioned the "timeline correlation" of Adam & Eve vs Neanderthal Man myself. The best answer I have found so far is that they came several generations later. Specifically, I would say the Neanderthal man "appeared" after the Tower of Babylon was built. That's when Mankind decided they would build a tower tall enought to reach to Heaven itself. God did not approve of this endeavor and He stepped in. He "confused thier languages" so that the different peoples no longer understood what the others were saying. The Bible also indicates that God caused them to "lose some of the knowledge of technology" they had developed so that they would never again be able to even attempt such a feat.

The Bible states that the Israelites were divided into 12 Tribes...and some of these tribes were nomadic. And a nomadic tribe with primitive knowledge of communcation and tool use is also a fairly accurated description of Neanderthals.

One question I have for you, Grungi, is this. You say you can't believe in any kind of supernatural being that created you or the world. Yet you stated in a response to Ronn Bmann's that supernatural occurances were one of the FEW things you DID believe in. How do you reconcile that you believe in supernatural events more than science, but can't believe in a supernatural Creator??

{BTW,if I misunderstood your response to Ronn, then I apologize in advance}

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Grungi: btw interesting point is why do you play rpg's? my mum is a christian church of england and she hates anything rpg like, anything to do with magic shes not allowed to take part in and once my dad bought home some of his usual crappy christmas (which i do my best not to celebrate in any way, never one for gifts anyway) presents (goes to cheap store and buys whatever he can find so its always interesting [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) he brought what he thought was some game and it turned out to be tarot cards and my mum went mental saying to get them out of the house (my dad is an atheist so didnt know what the problem was) so by dint of this mum could not logon to this forum at all as its a roleplaying site which involves magic so she certainly wouldnt be playing the games . so are rpgs allowed for a southern baptist then? and things like tarot cards and magic you dont care about? doesnt bother you either way? i dont understand my mums reaction because frankly tarot cards are just some cards with stupid markings, if people believe it fair enough but i thought she believed in god and if she does why should cards scare her? work of the devil? well surely if you got your bible at hand and faith to heart who gives a toss about some cards devilwork or not? another thing i find about religious people is they pick the parts they want to be religious about, my mum for example NEVER turns the other cheek in any way shape or form yet shes so fervent about tarot cards, IMO it would be far better for her to let an argument about whose done the cleaning go than get upset over some cards. Far as im concerned if your going to follow a religion then no bullshit about it you follow that religion to the letter otherwise you dont really believe it, you cant pick the parts you like or the parts you dont want, you have to take the lot and believe the lot. All the so called christians i knew at school (went to the societies, were in the paper for all their charity work etc) were the bullies and drug users, some right evil bastards amongst them, yet they go to church every week , how does that work? how can someone have the right to punch me for no reason and insult me again for no reason yet then go to church that week and be accepted as a good christian? definately doesnt work for me and its people like that (95percent of religious people) that give the rest a bad name and the religion itself. again like deep south fervent bible belt types who swear they worship god and are devout christians yet at the same time would kill any black people they see because of their colour? whats that about, do they not read the bible or something about men being brothers? gah is all i can say oh and bah bah bah religion no thanks give me respect, honesty and love any day.

Interesting question about why a Christian can play RPG's. And, I admit that I did have some issues concerning AD&D. However, after years of playing the game, researching the arguments against it, and praying about it...I decided that there is nothing wrong with the game ITSELF. As long as it is kept in the proper perspective. However, as most of you will agree, RPG's are very addictive, and I know some players who played the PnP version of AD&D would get too caught up in the game. There have been published accounts of mostly teens who "acted out" the game in real life. Usually, the results were harmless...but occassionaly it resulted in vandalizing or theft of property and on very rare occassions, even led to murder. While I don't believe the RPG game "made" the players do what they did...I do believe it influenced them.

The other problem I found with AD&D is that it offers at least an "introductary level" glossary of terms associated with the occult. Again, this is not bad by itself, but it could generate an interest in the occult that wasn't there before. That's a pretty thin stretch under the best of circumstances, but the possibility is there. As a Christian, I follow the Bible's admonishment to avoid ALL things associated with the occult. I simply don't believe the "occultic influence" of AD&D is that great. I do have a different view of tarot cards and magic. Tarot cards are used to "tell fortunes" or "divine the future".....BOTH of these practices are explicitly mentioned in the Bible as pursuits to be avoided at all costs....because the power provided through those practices come from Satan - not God.
BTW, I did give up AD&D for several years. NOT because I felt the game was "evil"...but because the amount of time I spent playing the game, upgrading my characters, are designing my dungeons was having an adverse affect on my church attendance and private worship. This also goes back to the example of Abraham and Isaac I mentioned in my previous post. God expects His followers to place Him first - above ALL else - in our lives. AD&D was clearly becoming more important to me than my relationship with God. That was why I had to give it up...so that I could put it back in it's proper perspective. Of the other people I originally gamed with, only one person had a similar experience. All the others (including other Christians) see absolutely NOTHING wrong with the game in any shape, form, or fashion.

Moving on to the second point in your post...I DO follow my religion completely, at least to the best of my ability. I admit there are areas where I fail. If somebody breaks into my house, they are going to be shot first and asked questions later. I will use lethal force on anybody that threatens the safety of my family. I don't pretend that is the proper Christian attitude. It isn't and I admit that fact. If I were to kill another person, I know I would have to answer for that transgression when I stand before God.

None of us are perfect,Grungi...but fortunately, God doesn't ask us to be perfect. The truly honost Christian will be the first to admit that he/she sins against God on a daily basis in one form or another. God understands our weaknesses and our sinful nature, but His Mercy far surpasses our transgressions. If we sincerely repent and strive to do better, we are forgiven our trangressions.

The operative word there, though, is sincerely. I know too well that there are many "Christians" that behave the same way as the bullies in your schools. While they may be accepted in their church, you can rest assured that their transgressions did NOT go un-noticed by God...and they WILL answer for their actions sooner or later to Him. It is precisely THAT type of behavior that turns so many people away from religion. People who claim to love God and Jesus, yet despise their fellow man because he doesn't agree with them. That was NOT the way Jesus lived His life, and it is NOT the way we are to lead ours...unfortunately, many cloak themselves in "sactimonious self-rightesnous" and act as if they are far better than everyone else. It saddens and sickens me deeply that people can behave like that, yet still claim to be Christian.

The same goes for the bigots and members of the Ku Klux Klan that did kill or attack black people merely because of their skin color. Some of them actually believed the Bible supported their cause...but mis-interpreting the Bible to support a selfish cause is nothing new.

It's a terribly sad truth that it still happens even in this day and age. [img]graemlins/verysad.gif[/img]

[Grungi]

unfortunately the fact is the majority of christians do not follow their faith and to say its only human is great i never want any part in the hypocrisy of religion, only thing that would convince me there was any point to it would be to see people actually living it how its supposed to be and i know that wont happen.

neanderthal man was beyond primitive even to the tribes you talk about, cromagnon man yes he might have been around at the same time but theres a long long time in between of evolution involved and theres no way they'd have been around at same time so that explanation is just an attempt to believe i think, see if you keep having to rationalise it then you dont truly believe unreservedly the religion so you dont have 100 percent faith, thats a shame because you seem like a pretty good christian with the right values otherwise and if someone broke into my home i wouldnt think twice about maiming them, killing no because id prefer to be vicious so they'd know not to do it again [img]tongue.gif[/img]

and AD&D more important than god to you? erm heh i only ever actually played it once, played lots of other roleplaying games alot and used to write loads too but to me nothing could ever be more important than other people IMO

As for the supernatural i said i can conceive of it fully, because i have seen a ghost before, so in my reality thats as much belief as i can get BUT in the overall scheme of things possibly i dont even have a reality at all (matrix good example) therefore i cannot believe ANYTHING except myself and my conciousness, but obviously within my reality i believe alot, hard to explain but i hope you see what i mean.

As for uniqueness i am completely unique and proud of it in every aspect of myself, noone is the same and similar doesnt cut it, even twins have huge differences in both dna and personalities (even the most identical still have big differences) , my personality is formed by both social surroundings, people and my own inbuilt sense of how things are, id put it at 60-40 for social to myself, i have strong feelings inside me that noone else ever put there, they are my own beliefs and thoughts its all shaped by society but its my own and noone else shares them equally.

human sacrifice was practiced regularly in olden times even just to get a good harvest, christianitys origins involved it too but then again you have a clash there with history and the bible, which to believe, me personally i believe this:

cavemen - beliveing in gods in all things that they personally have to do with, rocks, animals etc
next stage up till they get civilised - believing in gods of things they know less about but hear about through other tribes etc
first communities developing - believing in a one god and the origins of christianity are born but at this time they still practice human sacrificies to this god in the hope it will bring good crops or water sources or the like.

from there christianity developed and islam and many others all across the world, some just became stronger than others there were probably 1000 religions like christianity, for whatever reason it became one of the stronger ones.

thats what i think happened, i dont entertain the notion of adam and eve at all, its too pat and too storylike, if anyone knows the series Red Dwarf there is a superb episode in which (set in deep space many years in the future and comedy) they find the copy of the original bible and some markings on the inside cover, on closer inspection it states something like "to ben and mark my two sons, the story im about to tell is entirely fictional and the characters within bear no resemblence...." well you see my point, i found that incredibly amusing though im sure to christians that may well be insulting, but out of all of the comedy of it, i actually believe the bible is but that, a good read, a story and nothing more, read the silmarillion by tolkien, its like a bible, not as preachy but there are so many similarities.

thats why i said in many earlier posts, you cant plug any holes, likewise neither can i as the only way to prove it either way is through supernatural experience, but because were in the situation where i dont need to prove there is a god because no proof exists, its up to you to prove it to me. ie if someone says the yeti exists, you ask them to prove it and until they do their argument is less valid, thats the way i look at this one, id like some solid proof before i believe any of it, but my mind is open to believing it but as i said before even if it all turns out to be true its not my business one way or the other [img]tongue.gif[/img] so long as god doesnt bother me i wont bother him, he respects me and i respect him back, he did something bad to me and id kick his rearend [img]tongue.gif[/img] you get the idea anyway.