The American Constitution

Originally posted by khazadman: The right to keep and bear arms does not mean for hunting only. It is also for protection from an overreaching government.

That too! The Constitution is fudamentally all about limiting the power of the government over the people. The basic idea was Freedom, Liberty and Equality for all men.

[ 10-21-2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Angelousss]

Yorick your fundamental argument is wrong. If a suffiecent number of Americans wanted guns outlawed they would be. We have constitutional amendments that allow for changing times and circumstances. That is why the Constitution has persisted not for reverence of the founding fathers. We amended the constition to outlaw slavery. The found fathers while many were torn about slavery in the end chose to allow it to continue. The gun lobby is one of the strongest in washington, I believe they go to far but i am not for banning guns entirely.

[Arvon]

Originally posted by Yorick: Interpretations of the words change. The words themselves, without a vast majority of people and states, do not change. Re. Guns, it's not a different topic at all. The constitution is the reason why no American government is able to ban guns. No American government will, while the second Amendment holds. So yes it is fundamental to the gun debate. The constitutional stasis is cause death after death after death of the citizens it is meant to protect. To anyone new reading: Heresy? Am I offending you? How Holy are you regarding words made by politicians and soldiers of the past? If you're offended my case gains further proof.

As far as words changing the words of the Constitution are the rules of this country. They are the rules we play by. Do you play poker? Would you allow me to 'interperate' the rules of poker as we play? I can think of an interpertation of where my 2 pair beats your full house.

[Iron_Ranger]

On the gun issue.

Banning guns is just silly. What would be the point? Stop deaths? Pah, murders are murders, if they dont have a gun they will use a knife. Anything can be used as a lethal weapon.

Like it or not, a vast majority of americans enjoy guns. They enjoy hunting with them, they enjoy just shoting them. If you take guns away from people then are taking a little bit of freedom from them.

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

Amending the constitution is easy!! All you need is a 2/3 majority vote in the house and senate,a review of the amendment by the judicial branch and final approval by the executive branch. The only fly in the ointment is getting all of the people involved to agre on ANYTHING. As far as people owning guns in the U.S. is concerned , well it is too late to stop now. If they passed an amendment tomorrow that said everyone had hand over all their guns to the government about half the gun owners in the U.S. would be in jail for disobeying the law and come election time about half of the U.S. law makers would be out on their asses looking for new jobs. Also takeing away guns wont realy stop murders. Like another post on GenCon proves. It is illegal to own certain guns in Austrailia, but Memnoch has a whole laundry list of gun crimes in that countrie. To use the argument that it is harder to kill people without guns is also incorrect. Use Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacey as examples. The police pulled 30 bodies out of Gaceys crawlspace under his house and not one of them had been shot!! Ted Bundy has been linked to over a dozen murders and also , not a single one of them was shot. Makeing guns illegal wont stop people from killing each other. The only way to prevent murder is to make people not want to kill one another.

Face it Hunter, some people are just afraid of anything that makes loud noises. [img]smile.gif[/img] Seriously though, it is easier to advocate removing someone elses right to something that you care nothing about rather than to face the reality that some people are messed up individuals and that not all of them are entirely sane.

Politicians pass law after law, not because they have any hope that yet another law making something that is already illegal stop...but it will show that they "care" and will thus garner votes from people who just want to "feel" like they did something.

[Yorick]

To those who cherish freedom:

It seems your desire for freedom is selective.

What about freedom from fear? Freedom from being shot? Freedom from losing your possessions through theft? You are not free. You are held to ransom by the threat of violence, you are imprisoned by the past, you are chained to paying for home insurance, and medical insurance.

Debt is the slavery of the West, and fear is a chain of greater strength than iron.

To gain freedoms for society at all, you have to restrict an individuals freedom.

That is what LAW is. Restrictions on an individuals behaviour so society can live with some freedom from fear.

I see chants of freedom, which are in reality cries for imprisonment.

Free yourselves. Ban the gun. Allow cameras on highways and in plazas. Restrict the freedoms of those who would harm so those who are innocent may live freely.

[ 10-21-2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Amending the constitution is easy!! All you need is a 2/3 majority vote in the house and senate,a review of the amendment by the judicial branch and final approval by the executive branch. The only fly in the ointment is getting all of the people involved to agre on ANYTHING. As far as people owning guns in the U.S. is concerned , well it is too late to stop now. If they passed an amendment tomorrow that said everyone had hand over all their guns to the government about half the gun owners in the U.S. would be in jail for disobeying the law and come election time about half of the U.S. law makers would be out on their asses looking for new jobs. Also takeing away guns wont realy stop murders. Like another post on GenCon proves. It is illegal to own certain guns in Austrailia, but Memnoch has a whole laundry list of gun crimes in that countrie. To use the argument that it is harder to kill people without guns is also incorrect. Use Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacey as examples. The police pulled 30 bodies out of Gaceys crawlspace under his house and not one of them had been shot!! Ted Bundy has been linked to over a dozen murders and also , not a single one of them was shot. Makeing guns illegal wont stop people from killing each other. The only way to prevent murder is to make people not want to kill one another.

Have you heard of Zero tolerance policy? This is attributed to cleaning up New York City. Many of the hard crims were caught for misdemeanors.

By making it illegal to simply possess a gun, only criminals would carry them. If they are arrested for possessing a gun, the odds are they have commited/will commit other crimes.

Either that or they'd think twice about carrying them.

A child would not be able to get a carelessly hidden gun from their fathers den and take it to school or a gang brawl either.

Safer streets.

While where at it, lets look at the glorification of violence and the message of "no consequences" in film. The number of casual desensetising killings where the killer is a GOOD GUY! (Killing = Good? Since when? and to whom? The person killed?)

Films like 'Desperado' with Antonio Banderas are pathetic, and contribute as much to a society rotting from within, as prevelent gun ownership does.

If you seriously want to fix Americas desperate and cancerous problems, you'll need to start from the ground up.

Which is why I started with this post about the constitution.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: Do you do this here in the USA because it is safe, and secure for you to do so here and dangerous and deadly for you to go to the nations where really bad things are happening?

Actually New York City's high crime rate scared the crap out of me before I came here. The day after I was here the first time, a shooting occured on the coach I took up here.

I then lived in the South Bronx for a few months. Not exactly the safest place on Earth MagiK. I don't know which part of America you live in, but plenty of areas could be considered a 'dangerous jungle.'

If I wanted safety, I'd leave.

[ 10-21-2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Arvon: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Interpretations of the words change. The words themselves, without a vast majority of people and states, do not change. Re. Guns, it's not a different topic at all. The constitution is the reason why no American government is able to ban guns. No American government will, while the second Amendment holds. So yes it is fundamental to the gun debate. The constitutional stasis is cause death after death after death of the citizens it is meant to protect. To anyone new reading: Heresy? Am I offending you? How Holy are you regarding words made by politicians and soldiers of the past? If you're offended my case gains further proof.

As far as words changing the words of the Constitution are the rules of this country. They are the rules we play by. Do you play poker? Would you allow me to 'interperate' the rules of poker as we play? I can think of an interpertation of where my 2 pair beats your full house.[/QUOTE]Well the anti gun lobby has all but given up trying to get the second amendment reinterpreted. It can't be done.