Six's Review of the Tactics MOD (Tactics Spoilers Galore)

[Leslie]

Originally posted by Lord: Six, if they drain you enough, you'll get encumbered, which will be nearly worse than getting stunned. If you get encumbered, the only way out is to start dropping stuff. If you're a warrior and have on full plate mail or something else that's heavy, then you won't be able to drop it since you'll be in combat. It'll be the same as getting stunned, except that you have no chance of recovering in this one.

I agree. And one other thing. You can protect against STR drain only with PFMW.
I once forgot about STR drain and waltzed happily among those "fish" with stoneskin and ring of free action. Boy was I surprised when THE HAND appeared.

Stun can be avoided with free action (ring, spell). But in this case it's useless. You die anyway, ha, ha ...

[Lord]

Originally posted by Leslie: quote: Originally posted by Lord: Six, if they drain you enough, you'll get encumbered, which will be nearly worse than getting stunned. If you get encumbered, the only way out is to start dropping stuff. If you're a warrior and have on full plate mail or something else that's heavy, then you won't be able to drop it since you'll be in combat. It'll be the same as getting stunned, except that you have no chance of recovering in this one.

I agree. And one other thing. You can protect against STR drain only with PFMW.
I once forgot about STR drain and waltzed happily among those "fish" with stoneskin and ring of free action. Boy was I surprised when THE HAND appeared.

Stun can be avoided with free action (ring, spell). But in this case it's useless. You die anyway, ha, ha ... [/QUOTE]Leslie, equipping the Mace of Disruption +2 should protect against the strength drain. Or just use the spell NPP.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Rataxes, Wands of Frost might be easy to avoid with a soloist, but try micromanaging a party to avoid the effects without entering into "Spacebar-Hell" mode.

I too have yet to see a SThief successfully "use" the Wand of Polymorph on me, but wait, recall that the SThief does not actually use the wand on you.

If you have time, you might want to give my new script a spin. Just start a new game and rest two times. Then we will see whether the Wand of Polymorphing usage becomes more effective.

----

To all,

Currently the SThieves are Fighter/Mages. I was wondering about the following... ...

1) Do you mind that they are Human and multiclassed? Note that the default game has this oddity too. Although I do wonder whether their saving throws are correct. All straight 10s.

2) Would you prefer them to more "legit"? If so, which would you prefer?

- Assassin, level 8. * in Long Sword & Single Weapon Style. All points split evenly between Hide in Shadows and Move Silently.

- Assassin->Mage(4->5). * in Long & Single Weapon Style. No Potions of Invisibility (no more harvesting [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), attempts to cast Invisibility instead (I was pondering Mirror Image). Will cast Armor when spawned (more like apply really. I don't mind cheating this part because Armor lasts for 9 hours). Will cast Magic Missile (3 missiles at level 5). Will cast Vampiric Touch when HP is below 50%. All points split evenly between Hide in Shadows and Move Silently.

Spell list will be something like this,

Lvl 01: Magic Missile x3. There are 4 slots, but minus one for the Armor.
Lvl 02: Invisibility x2
Lvl 03: Vampiric Touch x1

Comments?

ADD] Would people prefer a 6->7 Assassin->Mage? The lvl 8 Assassin has 70000XP. A 6->7 will have 80000XP, and the 4->5 only has 25000XP.

[ 02-21-2004, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

ADD] Oh, and I think I can modify the behaviour so that they will attack anyone that is not a Thief (will still attack enemy Thieves like Imoen, Yoshimo or you though) or a Dog. [img]graemlins/showoff.gif[/img] Only if you want it though.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Lord: Six, if they drain you enough, you'll get encumbered, which will be nearly worse than getting stunned.

No way. The negative effects of STR drain are Encumbrance, having a weaker melee THAC0, and doing less melee damage. The negative effects of Stun include immediately not being able to move, having no THAC0 at all (ranged or melee), similarly not being able to do damage, being unable to defend yourself from any attack (the game does not even make attack rolls against Stunned creatures: All THAC0 rolls are auto-hits), and being unable to control your character in any way (an Encumbered character can still drink a Potion of Invisibility and pray).

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: SixOfSpades, which person got 45 proficiencies again? I can double check for you in NI. Be sure to give me the specific name.

I'm sure it's a bug, of course, but in my game the Ritual Theurgeons have 45 proficiency points in Sling. (And on top of being Ranger Archers Dualed to Cleric, at that.) And kudos to Weimer for even knowing the word 'theurgeon.' [img]smile.gif[/img] Idle thought: Ritual Austringers, who can see everything visible to their unkillable, trained Eagles. Hmmmmm.

Originally posted by Link: My problem doesn't lie with the fact that you are that extremely harsh, it does for a bit, but you're bitching their creations for inconsistency, without having contributed to them. In other words: it's always easy to critisize someone else's work afterwards. And I admit that you give your own solutions, but nevertheless I feel it's too easy to do such a thing.

Well, if having been a contributor to a MOD (or anything similar) was a firm criterion of being allowed to give constructive criticism, then the only people allowed to voice their opinions about MODs would be the MODders themselves--a highly self-fulfilling and unenlightening process. If it's any consolation, I'm a contributor now.

As for being extremely harsh, GBlucher wrote back, and even I was amazed by what he had to say: "You've pulled off quite a trick, imo. You managed to grade and criticize the mods without coming off as even slightly insulting. It really is a good job!" True, he could just be being sarcastic, but I'm not getting that from the rest of his Email, so..... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Rataxes: Wands of Frost are the easiest to avoid. If you make a habit of standing back a few feet each time you expect him to use his wand, you can easily dodge the cone by simply walking straight away from it.

Well, Rataxes, the time "I expect him to use his Wand" is the time when he's just become visible from his Backstab, and I still have no idea which party member he's going to aim at, so I don't know which way to have them run--and that's only if I know his Wand is a Frost Wand at all.

Originally posted by Lord: Leslie, equipping the Mace of Disruption +2 should protect against the strength drain. Or just use the spell NPP.

HUH?!? What kind of sense does that make? Immunity to Level Drain gives immunity to stat drain as well?

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: 1) Do you mind that they [the SThieves] are Human and multiclassed? 2) Would you prefer them to more "legit"? If so, which would you prefer?

1) Yes, I do mind. As long as there's no really good reason for breaking the rules, why break the rules?
2) Yes, I would. I would prefer a Levels 6->7 Assassin->Mage, and make everything as legit as possible: Create the prototype in Character Creation. And I'd like more realistic stats, too (for all MOD characters): Just keep hitting Reroll and take the first set of (unaltered) stats that looks good and will allow the Dual.

As for the SThief equipment & behavior: I'll be sorry to lose the Invisibility Potions--one wonders if there might be some pure Assassins, who would carry a Potion or two for emergencies (or a second Backstab), hiding among the Assassin->Mages. (Of course, if the "Duergar Patrols" are implemented, they would replace all but 2 of the SThieves.) I don't mind SThieves respawning on the 2nd level of the Dungeon, but they shouldn't spawn within sight range of any party member.

[ 02-21-2004, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: Well, Rataxes, the time "I expect him to use his Wand" is the time when he's just become visible from his Backstab, and I still have no idea which party member he's going to aim at, so I don't know which way to have them run--and that's only if I know his Wand is a Frost Wand at all.

You could just initially walk up to the thief with one person to avoid the problem of having your entire party in the danger zone. Preferably Imoen, as she can take the backstabs with ease with Stoneskins on, and it would also make sense to send the only character with some rogueish qualities forth to scout. She could realistically see the wand and recognize the type as soon as the thief became visible, and immediately start running for her life. The thieves always wait with their wands half a second or so after becoming visible, which is all you need to gain that three feet lead on the cone, if it turns out to be a Wand of Frost. It would be wise to start running the hell out of there no matter what kind of wand it turns out to be though.

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Rataxes, Wands of Frost might be easy to avoid with a soloist, but try micromanaging a party to avoid the effects without entering into "Spacebar-Hell" mode.

What's so wrong with Spacebar-Hell mode?

[SixOfSpades]

Yeah, that could work. But frankly, I'm still hoping for most of those damn Thieves to be wiped out entirely--is that wrong? [img]graemlins/angel.gif[/img]

On a completely different note: The Tethyrian Shieldbearers I suggested for Improved Oasis (3, I guess) would be completely meaningless with the equipment I suggested for them: Even with Full Plate, 18 DEX, Large Shields+2, Helmets that grant a -1 AC bonus, and Cloaks of Protection+1, that brings their AC down to -8. Korgan, wielding a Normal Axe and nothing else, would have a THAC0 of -6 by that time.....and he could quite easily be dualwielding the Axe of Unyielding with Crom Faeyr. Long story short, the shieldwall I'd envisioned turns out to be about as substantial as an unmoved lawn. So I thought about giving these guys a special kit. The Dwarven Defender is a 3rd Edition prestige class, but sadly just for Dwarves, and it's an all-combat-skills kind of thing, not the "emphasis on defense" style I wanted the Shieldbearers to be.

So, what are your thoughts on this:

SHIELDBEARER
Class: Fighter
Race/Alignment: Any

ADVANTAGES:

• Base -2 bonus to Armor Class
• Further -1 bonus to AC every 4 levels
• Gains 5% Resistance to Missile damage every 5 levels
• Can cast Armor of Faith and Defensive Harmony, once per day per 10 levels (starts at Level 1 with one use)
• Every 7 levels (starts at Level 1 with one use) can cast Bastion, which lasts for one round per 3 levels of the Shieldbearer and renders him immune to Charm, Fear, Maze, Imprisonment, Confusion, and death magic.

DISADVANTAGES:

• Base number of Attacks per Round never goes higher than 1
• May place only a single proficiency point in any weapon
• May not put proficiency points into any Weapon Style except Sword & Shield
• +1 penalty to THAC0 at every 3rd level (Stops after Level 21)
• Does not get the ToB HLAs of Greater Whirlwind, Greater Deathblow, or Critical Strike
• May choose the HLAs of Whirlwind, Deathblow, and Power Attack only once

Should he get a small Saving Throws bonus? Should he be barred from Dualclassing to certain classes? (For instance, the HLA disadvantages would become irrelevant if you Dualed before HLA levels.) Should he be barred from Dualing at all? Opinions welcome.

[Rataxes]

A saving throws bonus would be in order, perhaps +1 every five levels? Allowing this kit to dual-class couldn't spawn any overpowered combinations if that's what you mean. I say he should be able to dual-class like any normal fighter.

Also, instead of a -1 bonus to the general AC every fourth levels, make it a -1 bonus against the four different damage types. This to prevent the AC bonus becoming redundant after reaching the cap on general AC at -25. After all, I take it this guy is supposed to be the master of defense?

[ 02-21-2004, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Rataxes: Allowing this kit to dual-class couldn't spawn any overpowered combinations if that's what you mean. I say he should be able to dual-class like any normal fighter.

Yeah, after mulling it over, I agree. I was afraid people might use it as a base from which to create invulnerable gunning turrets (what do you do with a Mage who walks around without protection spells, but you still can't hit because of his damn AC?), but decided the defensive benefits of such a character would be compensated by the inability to fight worth jack. And then I thought that Shieldbearer->Clerics would be overpowered (Your Priest of Helm could be renamed Thomas the Tank) due to spells such as Holy Power and Energy Blades, but then realized that's no different from what regular Clerics could do anyway--the only difference is the Warrior hitpoints & Saving Throws.


Slightly edited design--check out the Shieldbashing.

SHIELDBEARER
Class: Fighter
Race/Alignment: Any non-Chaotic

ADVANTAGES:

• Base -1 bonus to Saving Throws
• Base -2 bonus to Armor Class
• -1 bonus to all AC Modifiers every 4 levels
• Gains 5% Resistance to Missile damage every 5 levels
• Every 4 levels can Shieldbash any enemy within melee range once per day. This deals 2D10 Blunt damage and knocks the victim back. After Level 14 it will knock the victim down (unless Save vs. Death) and after Level 20 will Stun him for one round (unless Save vs. Breath with -3 bonus). Large creatures such as dragons or giants will not be knocked back or stunned.
• Every 7 levels (starts at Level 1 with one use) can cast Bastion, which lasts for one round per 3 levels of the Shieldbearer and renders him immune to Charm, Fear, Maze, Imprisonment, Confusion, and death magic. This also slows the Shieldbearer's movement rate by half for the duration.
• Every 10 levels (starts at Level 1 with one use) can cast Armor of Faith and Defensive Harmony, each once per day.

DISADVANTAGES:

• Base number of Attacks per Round never goes higher than 1
• May place only a single proficiency point in any weapon
• May not put proficiency points into any Weapon Style except Sword & Shield
• +1 penalty to THAC0 at every 3rd level (Stops after Level 21)
• Does not get the ToB HLAs of Greater Whirlwind, Greater Deathblow, or Critical Strike
• May choose the HLAs of Whirlwind, Deathblow, and Power Attack only once

[ 02-22-2004, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]