The U.S. as seen from a world perspective, politically. Your opinion please!

[Moridin]

Originally posted by MagiK: Heres a question for ya Moradin...just how did the EPA get those numbers...as far as I know they didn't hang a hose on my exhaust system and collect a sample...what they used was a teensy tiny sampling of data and projected the numbers...those numbers are used in policy making but are in no way believed to be accurate scientific data. (or at least they shouldnt be.) And by the way CO2 is only one type of pollution I was speaking in gross tonnage o waste dumpped. Take a sail along the the South China coast some time..then sail along the Gulf of Mexico and come back and tell me which you would rather be dipped in. CO2 is one pollutant, lets think raw sewage, lets think of all the pollutants...unless we are talking green house gasses...oh and those metric tons listed for CO2 arent bad compared to say Mount St. Helens or perhaps Pinatubo...or Mauna Kia Again I am not saying we shouldnt continue to clean up. Im just think the kyoto thing is so full of holes that it isnt worth even looking at...Oh and just fyi in the accord China and russia are considered developing nations.

What is the point of putting any numbers out there then MagiK, if all you are going to do is try and shoot them down! Are any studies, or research good enough for you? Of course the EPA took samples that is how things are done, you have to be a complete idiot to believe that we can measure every single ounce of emission or dumping or anything else. It is called random sampling and if you have taken any statistics course you would know that these can be very, very, accurate of the entire population!

And yes those were just the numbers for CO2 emissions! Do you want the numbers for total greenhouse gas emissions, raw sewage...? I can certainly find them for you, but again what is the point, in all of your infinite wisdom you will just say that they are 'unscientific' and 'biased'! How are we to believe anything that anybody tells us, when we look at everything with a sceptical eye? You continue to say, don't take things at face value, dig deeper, well how deep is deep enough for you. The EPA puts out numbers, you really believe that they 'fudge' them for some reason? Why would they, where is the motive behind that?

Also, you keep comparing numbers to 'natural' emissions. Well guess what nature has been doing a pretty good job taking care of herself for billions of years. We cannot stop Volcanic eruptions or Oceanic emissions, but does that mean we should just continue to pollute, b/c hey it is nothing compared to a volcano

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
**Former proud member of the Laughing Hyenas**

[Blade]

Sorry if i came across that way probably did but the mention of thoes small little
inperfections being debated over for so long drives me almost to a killing frenzy.

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Life and death are mearly shadows of the complexity of humans

Ya know Moridin, the more of your posts that I read, the more impressed I am with your elocution. Thanks for being a breath of fresh air in the forums.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Absynthe: Ya know Moridin, the more of your posts that I read, the more impressed I am with your elocution. Thanks for being a breath of fresh air in the forums.

I'll second that

Absynthe, I apologize if I am the foul wind on the forums I voiced my opinions and tried not to ridicule you or anyone else. I tried to put some hard won insights gained over the years. You called Moradin a breath of fresh air on here and yet his is not in fact a disenting point of view and actually seems to be along party lines for this forum. Its hard to be the breath of fresh air when you constitute the majority. I would also say that I am probably also the oldest person who has seen the most commings and goings of doom sayers. I will refrain from voicing unpopular points of view in the forum from now on since it is obviously not what is wanted. I apologize to all who felt threatened, insulted and or in any other way demeaned by my disagreement with them. Moradin, you asked why post numbers at all...I say don't. Notice I used very few actual numbers. I don't trust them because I have seen for myself that with statistical analysis and some fudging here and there you can prove anything you want with numbers. Please don't allow any of my ranting disturb you, feel free to believe anything you want. You have that right as a human being. Im sorry I caused all this hostility and discontent.

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[Donut]

Originally posted by MagiK: Sorry Donut I don't buy it I know too many real life meteorologists who admit they don't have the Data, the NAS is not an independant unbiased entity. Where do they get their money?? who writes their checks and makes the multi-million $$$ donations???

I imagine that the US Government paid for this research. The NAS won't get any money from Bush if they come up with answers that he doesn't like.


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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
Official Titterer of the Laughing Hyenas
Don't mention the score - I mentioned it but I think I got away with it!

MagiK, I don't think you caused any hostility or hurt feelings, certainly not on my part.As for a "party line" to this forum, I haven't seen one, except the forms of rational debate backed up by facts and data. We consistently have differing opinions on things. My compliment to Moridin doesn't apply to this thread only, I like what I've read in other threads also. And it is intended only as an appreciation of his postings, if I had something to say about your postings, or anyone elses, I would direct it to you. Moridin and I have disagreed in the past, and probably will in the future. But the basis of any debates we have is mutual respect and using facts to back up our opinions.
If you want to express an opinion, thats all well and good, but don't expect people to buy into it without some kind of factual backup. Simply restating your opinion over and over does not make it truth.
I hope you don't feel unwelcome, that certainly wasn't my intent in any of my comments, and I apologize if I've made you feel that way.

Actually the president doesn't have sole discretion on which programs get funded. You may be right though he may try to influence their budget, but even then with congress pretty much deadlocked I doubt he could actually get anything done. Personally (and this is just an opinion) I don't think Bush will get much accomplished due to the near parity of power in congress.

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[Moridin]

Originally posted by MagiK: Absynthe, I apologize if I am the foul wind on the forums I voiced my opinions and tried not to ridicule you or anyone else. I tried to put some hard won insights gained over the years. You called Moradin a breath of fresh air on here and yet his is not in fact a disenting point of view and actually seems to be along party lines for this forum. Its hard to be the breath of fresh air when you constitute the majority. I would also say that I am probably also the oldest person who has seen the most commings and goings of doom sayers. I will refrain from voicing unpopular points of view in the forum from now on since it is obviously not what is wanted. I apologize to all who felt threatened, insulted and or in any other way demeaned by my disagreement with them. Moradin, you asked why post numbers at all...I say don't. Notice I used very few actual numbers. I don't trust them because I have seen for myself that with statistical analysis and some fudging here and there you can prove anything you want with numbers. Please don't allow any of my ranting disturb you, feel free to believe anything you want. You have that right as a human being. Im sorry I caused all this hostility and discontent.

MagiK

Don't be afraid to post dissenting views...without them where would we be! That is the actual breath of fresh air. Without differing opinions we really wouldn't get very far in this world! As for Abysnthe's comment (thank you btw), perhaps it was meant that I try to make educated posts, not rambling comments, not that I am saying you are...many people on this forum spout off and then run and hide, like you say, they don't dig into the numbers, they hear something on the news and take it as fact....well I don't and I am glad you don't either! I agree with you that it is very easy for numbers to be manipulated to prove your point. B/c of this fact I do not just look at numbers from one side or the other, b/c they will be biased. But when you look at both sides (say corporations and environmentalists) and they agree with each other, then I can conclude that those numbers are not fudged and can be taken as accurate.

I did not mean any harm or ill-will with my posts, I was trying to state my opinion on your viewpoints. Please continue to post but don't be afraid of retaliation. If your side is strong enough then it should stand up to critisism!

[Kaz]

Gods, I'm away for two hours and what happens? Some things to say: The year 2000 was the year with the most natural catastrophes (floods, storms and the like) in all of history! Also, the year 2000 was the warmest year in the last century (this information was recorded and researched by a group of students at my school who are not getting funding from ANYBODY, I know many of the people in the group, it is not biased). Whats more, about CO2 emissions - the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has been stable at 0.33% (I think it is) for millions of years. Now it has risen to 0.34%. I have heard this from too many sources to seriously doubt it.

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I am the great Kazara