Canadian troops die under US friendly fire

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: You make a good point there. I don't know enough about the U.S Airforce and the training their pilots recieve to judge this man or his actions.

Indeed I believe that's prudent... for instance... the low profile the Netherlands military keeps is certainly no reflection on their capabilities or training either... they contribute where they can I'm sure.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: Well, I got the "3rd time US killed friendly forces since the beginning of the campaign" from a CNN pop-up. I'm sorry but there's no reason for what happened yesterday to have happened at all. The pilot should have know where he was (thanks to encrypted GPS technology). It was confirmed that he was denied the permission to fire his bomb yet he did. The safe and rational course of action would have been to climb out of range of small-arms fire. The pilot's lack of judgement resulted in the death of allied soldier. Thrust me, I've seen your military in action. For the most part it's commandible. I did also witness one of your pilot shooting down (simulated) a friendly plane during a NORAD flying exercise. Errors happen everywhere. The only problem is that our militaries (note the "S") don't learn from their errors.

It really is a problem that all militaries face... the lethality of these platforms is increasing, along with the range from which you can engage. In this case it was night and the pilot observed muzzle flashes, there was no way for him to know he wasn't being shot at... he called back and they told him not to attack unless he felt he was in danger. I don't know about you but if I see guys shooting and they might be baddies... I'm going to feel pretty endangered.

The lack of coordination is what caused this accident... that pilot should have been told there were Canadian friendlies on the ground at his location. The US group obviously wasn't aware of the Canadian operation. Probably a paper shuffler somewhere screwed up... and it doesn't really matter what country he came from, as long as the breakdown is found and hopefully fixed. Applying blame to the pilot I just think is wrong... you can't have those guys second guessing every engagement (or they'll be the ones getting killed), he wasn't given enough information and acted on what he knew.

[ 04-18-2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Avatar]

American pilots (National Guard) should not be flying in foreign countries!!! I mean this kind of thing never happens to British pilots of the Royal Airforce. I am saying the Americans should be more careful.. it's not some kind of computer game.
In the Gulf War, American pilots had a tradition of being ashamed to scome back with a full payload and had to bomb tertiary unnecessary targets if the primary target was unavailable. british pilots frequently returned with full weapons never firing unless 100% sure.

[Avatar]

Originally posted by MILAMBER: quote: Originally posted by Avatar: sounds familiar? What is it with the Americans and killing friendly or neutral forces? They bomb the Chinese Embassy, knockout Albanian Tanks, blow up their own Marines and now kill Canadian troops. Apparently the pilot who is a national guard (part-time) was under fire and thought the Canadians had fired upon him. What is not clear is whether he was actually hit by enemy fire and then fired on Canadians nearby... or He saw Canadians firing at ground dummies in an excercise and panicked and fired at them.

Come on bro, now what kind of post is this?

Yup, all us Americans are blood-thirsty lunatics that revel in killing allies and sacraficing goats.

Right now Americans are running more operations in that area then any other country. Wouldn't it follow that the country running the most operations would have a higher probability of making a mistake? It's just statistics. Do you believe the pilot wanted to have the death of 4 allies on his conscience? I assure you that despite what you might think, all Americans are not alike. You might have heard people refer to America as "The Melting Pot" before. Do you think that means we were all the same?

I know you're a smart guy, so please be careful as to how you may come across to others before you write.[/QUOTE]Hi Tim, sorry if the way I phrased it was offensive. *hugs* sorry americans. I was just saying how National guards should not fight in wars like these and pilots should be given more training and communications should be much better established in a war zone like that. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Wulfere]

I for one would like to offer my sincere sympathies for the families of those lost in this action so far. Be they Afghan Troops fighting with us, Canadians, English, or who ever. They are brave men and women and have my profound respect.

Fighting in the modern era is extremely complicated. Co-ordination of troops, Air Support, training, supply and medical units is a huge enterprise. Despite all the technology out there you still can't just pick up your mic and talk to the guys on the ground. Different Nations use different equipment. It doesn't always mesh well. Commanders and those doing the fighting don't always know with certainty where one group is or isn't. They have to fall back on the training they recieve and hope to god they make the right choice sometimes. Unfortunately that doesn't always happen. I wish that this had not happened. Just as every current and former memeber of the US Armed Forces does.

At 500 knots you have precious little time to make a descision. You have gound controllers telling you to do one thing and you training telling you to do another. In the end it is a judgement call. I am sure that pilot or the ground controllers are wishing things had gone otherways. Despite what you may think reservists are by and large well trained, and many are former members of the services.
Of course it is easier to point fingers. To blame shoddy training or this person or that. The fact is Men died. This will continue to happen for as long as Human Beings make war on one another. You will never escape it completely. All you can do is look at what happened and what you can do to keep it from happening in the future. We do our best as Human Beings an that's all we can ever do.

I have come to expect these kind of posts here at IW. I probably shouldn't have even clicked on this thread. But, I did. You have my 2 cents worth. Take Care all and God Bless.

[MILAMBER]

Originally posted by Avatar: quote: Originally posted by MILAMBER: quote: Originally posted by Avatar: sounds familiar? What is it with the Americans and killing friendly or neutral forces? They bomb the Chinese Embassy, knockout Albanian Tanks, blow up their own Marines and now kill Canadian troops. Apparently the pilot who is a national guard (part-time) was under fire and thought the Canadians had fired upon him. What is not clear is whether he was actually hit by enemy fire and then fired on Canadians nearby... or He saw Canadians firing at ground dummies in an excercise and panicked and fired at them.

Come on bro, now what kind of post is this?

Yup, all us Americans are blood-thirsty lunatics that revel in killing allies and sacraficing goats.

Right now Americans are running more operations in that area then any other country. Wouldn't it follow that the country running the most operations would have a higher probability of making a mistake? It's just statistics. Do you believe the pilot wanted to have the death of 4 allies on his conscience? I assure you that despite what you might think, all Americans are not alike. You might have heard people refer to America as "The Melting Pot" before. Do you think that means we were all the same?

I know you're a smart guy, so please be careful as to how you may come across to others before you write.[/QUOTE]Hi Tim, sorry if the way I phrased it was offensive. *hugs* sorry americans. I was just saying how National guards should not fight in wars like these and pilots should be given more training and communications should be much better established in a war zone like that. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Thanks, much better

[ 04-18-2002, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: MILAMBER ]

[/)eathKiller]

eh, we all make mistakes, its just that the US has so darn many troops and uses such old equiptment that yes, indeed, it has many many many many many many many flaws... LOL... I hope to maybe change some of those flaws later in my life, then again maybe not...

[Ryanamur]

Thoran, I got some more "stats" for you. Hope you enjoy.

http://cbc.ca/news/indepth/cdn_casua...endlyfire.html

"...But this isn't the first case of friendly fire or accidental attacks since the war in Afghanistan began in October.

On December 5, an American B-52 bomber missed its target and dropped a bomb instead on ground troops who were directing air strikes against nearby Taliban targets. Three U.S. soldiers and five Afghan Opposition soldiers were killed and about 40 others were injured. The investigation isn't complete, but officials believe there were errors in transmitting target co-ordinates to the B-52.

In January, U.S. forces killed 16 people and captured another 27 only to discover later that they were not members of al-Qaeda or the Taliban.

On March 12, a training accident in the Kuwaiti desert killed five American soldiers and one officer from New Zealand when a pilot was mistakenly given the signal to bomb an observation post.

And it's now believed that U.S. special forces soldier Stanley Harriman and several Afgan fighters, who died on March 2, were killed not by al-Qaeda forces but by a U.S. gunship that engaged what it thought was an enemy convoy.

...

In the Persian Gulf War, 35 of the 146 combat deaths among U.S. soldiers have been blamed on friendly fire."

The article also points out that the orgine of a bomb or bullet cannot be told during a battle. Friendly fire can usually only be witnessed in isolated incidents.

[ 04-18-2002, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by /)eathKiller: eh, we all make mistakes, its just that the US has so darn many troops and uses such old equiptment that yes, indeed, it has many many many many many many many flaws... LOL... I hope to maybe change some of those flaws later in my life, then again maybe not...

LOL, there's just nothing like a good dose of sarcasm [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

[dizzy]

Hi Tim, sorry if the way I phrased it was offensive. *hugs* sorry americans. I was just saying how National guards should not fight in wars like these and pilots should be given more training and communications should be much better established in a war zone like that.

Uh excuse me avator but National Guard is trained just like the Army
its just anothjer branch of the reserves and comeing from someone who isnt in the military how the hell would you know who should fight and who shouldnt?