ADHD real or just bad parenting?

[Sir Kenyth]

Originally posted by Sir Michael: And I might add that most kids are not that bad anyway. I did two teacher and classroom observations in the last two semesters, one in high school, and one in junior high (both science classes). In both cases, the classes were very well behaved, with the biggest "problems" being gum chewing, talking too much, and inattention. These problems could have been easily dealt with by a change in teaching methods (and I said so in my observation reports), or by simply ignoring them (I don't think gum chewing is that big a deal, for instance). From my research, about 95% of classroom problems fall into this minor category. Occasionally a teacher will deal with something more serious, but an effective management plan in "The First Days of School" (according to Harry Wong) will alleviate most potential problems. Not to sound like Magik in his diatribes about the environmental and other world problems aren't real, but the media has way overblown educational problems in this country. For the millions of kids and teachers in school every day, a few cases are bound to happen and get publicized. Research has also shown that test scores (as so recently emphasized by the President) are NOT way behind those of other countries. In fact, they are about equal.

HEAR, HEAR!!! A pox on the sensationalist media and it's conjured emergencies!

[ 05-15-2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Sir Kenyth ]

Originally posted by Sir Michael: From Magik: quote: Good luck in teaching kids who know they have nothing to fear from you and who know you cannot discipline them....not an enviable position to be in, in my view.

Why can't I discipline them, Magik? Yeah, we're not allowed to touch (as in hit) them, but my parents didn't believe in that anyway. Punishment is effective only in very short term situations anyway. It undermines intrinsic motivation, and creates a sense of fear and hatred and desired revenge in the classroom, all of which are not conducive to an effective learning environment. The days of the teacher relying on an overbearing personality and domination of the classroom in a test of wills and carrying out threats with corporal punishment are long gone. They are replaced with new theories of classroom management and classroom discipline, based on structure, mutual respect, giving kids choice, and meeting their needs. Logical consequences (as in: a student writes on desks, he gets to clean them) of actions are used instead of punishments. My favorite system actually uses a combination of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators for students, and is called the SCORE system.

Success
Curiosity
Originality
Relationships
Energy

The important thing to remember is that the teacher is more intelligent and more educated than the students, and should act as such. Objective management and discipline in the classroom are the keys to successful learning. Besides, I don't believe in violence, and hitting kids to punish them is the easy way out for parents who are too lazy to figure out a better way to discipline them, IMHO.[/QUOTE]I will differ with you over the idea that "punishment" is only effective short term. Weak and ineffectual punishments yes, but strong and properly applied punishments and rewards has worked quite well all thoughout history. I also will never be convinced that PAIN is not natures most effective teaching tool, however I would hope that by the time kids get to school they would be better behaved than to require corporal punishment...altho this is not a popular view these days, it did get us to this point. My kids were spanked when they were younger and now at age 8 and 11 it isn't an issue. No they aren't perfect but they no longer commit offenses that require that level of punishment and know how to earn the rewards. [img]smile.gif[/img] Im a hard daddy but a good one....but the real kicker will be to see how they handle puberty and their teens.....I will see for sure then.

I want to also say that the idea that fear of punsihment by authority in a child is not such a bad thing. I can't know what is in anyone elses mind but I know what I went through as a kid and fear of doing something that would tick off my father was a STRONG motivator for me and for my friends judging from my discussions witht hem growing up. Terror no...fear yes, I want my son to have a smidgie of fear of me when he thinks about experimenting with drugs or doing something equally stupid.

[ 05-15-2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[/)eathKiller]

HAH its a false diagnosis, quakery, modern quakery, no psychologist would ever dare touch the subject with a 10 foot pole, its just a money making effort made by ridalin and it is mainly caused by a severe lack of educated doctors, NEVER has a military doctor diagnosed a child with ADD but private doctors can say whatever the hell they want if they're lazy enough to and want to make a quick buck [img]tongue.gif[/img]

FOOLISH lies i tell you! VIdeogames are stimulating yes, but so can be schoolwork, howeverm in this modern world, we can't seem to made education fun and exiting any more, it becomes more of a chore, a foolish chore, the child will learn more playing videogames and watching TV that he/she will going to school It's true you know!

[gaunty]

topic #1

YES while mommy is pregnant, mommy has a high lead in take "lead poisoning", she has a high tobacko in take "she's a chain smoker", and she has a high alcahol problem. then we wonder what's wrong with this child? could it be the parents fault? "ohhhh no it's not they're fault"!

topic #2

some one in the begining of this thred tride to us the playstation as
a example vrs. ADD.

hear in parts of usa, individual surtin ethnic children can resight gangster rap and hip hop rap CD album after CD album after album......

It's not just the playstation... it's the rap music the tv attatude and other stuff.

[caleb]

Rap music doesn't have anything to do with it gaunty.

[Galadria]

I, as a pediatrician, am interested to read the postings on this thread. It pretty much sums up a lot of the misinformation that I hear when parents bring in their children, usually at the insistence of the school, but not always. First of all, I do not diagnose ADHD, I see them and refer them to a child psychologist that I know and trust, and only when she gives me the diagnosis of ADHD do I put them on Ritalin or Adderall. It is truly amazing how the children change, and how some of them fear being off of the medication and "getting into trouble" again. I just this year took twin girls off of Ritalin for the final time as they graduated from college, and they were still nervous about being off. They are doing well, though, and I got an invitation to one of their wedding this week. You do not see these kids when they come in the office with their anguished parents, who often have tried literrally every thing else, first. Yes, I do have some harassed mothers who bring in their five-year olds, but I send them packing. It does have its uses, though doubtless it is sometimes misdiagnosed.

[Azred]

The fact that the symptoms are so vague, so unclearly defined, is what keeps leading me to the conclusion that there is no "real" disease as ADHD. I do promise to keep an open mind, of course, because medical science does always improve. Case in point: for years, people with chronic ulcers were told to stay away from spicy foods, cut down on caffeine, and take bicarbonates/antacids; now, though, one source of chronic ulcers is a bacterial infection of the stomach. Call me stubborn, call me closed-minded (just call me! [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] ), but I will wait for more research and more findings.
Of course, unlike many parents, if a doctor were to tell me "your son needs to be placed on *insert name of pharmaceutical here*" then I would at least get a second opinion and begin doing my own research into that medication (the real beauty of the Internet--research anything) before thinking that a pill will solve everything. *sigh* I suppose I became cynical due to my ex-nutcase, who always kept thinking that more/better medication would "solve" some or all of her difficulties.
Galadria is correct, of course--too many parents with not enough information.

Originally posted by Galadria: I, as a pediatrician, am interested to read the postings on this thread. It pretty much sums up a lot of the misinformation that I hear when parents bring in their children, usually at the insistence of the school, but not always. First of all, I do not diagnose ADHD, I see them and refer them to a child psychologist that I know and trust, and only when she gives me the diagnosis of ADHD do I put them on Ritalin or Adderall. It is truly amazing how the children change, and how some of them fear being off of the medication and "getting into trouble" again. I just this year took twin girls off of Ritalin for the final time as they graduated from college, and they were still nervous about being off. They are doing well, though, and I got an invitation to one of their wedding this week. You do not see these kids when they come in the office with their anguished parents, who often have tried literrally every thing else, first. Yes, I do have some harassed mothers who bring in their five-year olds, but I send them packing. It does have its uses, though doubtless it is sometimes misdiagnosed.

Thanks for the info Galadria [img]smile.gif[/img] I do not doubt that there are some children that do indeed suffer these types of problems. Unfortunately, I live in a rather...ummm economicly challenged neighborhood (long story, but it is letting me get back into a house quicker) and the two parents that i've been observing (and their kids) that prompted me to start the thread have me convinced that at least in these two cases it is just a matter of bad parenting. Im glad (but not surprised) to hear that you do indeed send the "harrassed" mothers "packing" [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Azred: The fact that the symptoms are so vague, so unclearly defined, is what keeps leading me to the conclusion that there is no "real" disease as ADHD. I do promise to keep an open mind, of course, because medical science does always improve. Case in point: for years, people with chronic ulcers were told to stay away from spicy foods, cut down on caffeine, and take bicarbonates/antacids; now, though, one source of chronic ulcers is a bacterial infection of the stomach. Call me stubborn, call me closed-minded (just call me! [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] ), but I will wait for more research and more findings. Of course, unlike many parents, if a doctor were to tell me "your son needs to be placed on *insert name of pharmaceutical here*" then I would at least get a second opinion and begin doing my own research into that medication (the real beauty of the Internet--research anything) before thinking that a pill will solve everything. *sigh* I suppose I became cynical due to my ex-nutcase, who always kept thinking that more/better medication would "solve" some or all of her difficulties. Galadria is correct, of course--too many parents with not enough information.

Second opinions...great idea, that not enough people seem to use.

[AzureWolf]

It is very real, I have had it myself all my life..mine is very mild and only leaves me with a short attention span. And because of it (my mother refused to put me on any kind of drug) I failed school, no it is not just an excuse. I tried my damn hardest in class to do the best I could but my attention always drifted off no matter what I did. It is the same with everything I do.
On the other hand a lot of parents use it as an excuse to absolve themselves of responsibility of the things their children do, not taking on the fact that they might be the one at fault.
And sorry Magik but frankly corporal punishment quite frankly disgusts me. Pain is no way to go about getting things accomplished.