Evolution/Creation 2 (aka Religion III)

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Sir Goulum: I'm also a non believer like Jonny, and I agree with him. If there is a God, what is he doin? If he is all powerful then why doesn't he try and help us mere mortals??

Because that would be treating us all like babies. Personally, I'm an adult, I take responsibility for my actions, and I don't want some 'god' stepping in like mommy or daddy whenever I screw up. Thanks. If there is a god, it's not s/he who is torturing and killing people in Zimbabwe. It's not s/he who refuses to listen to reason and the voices of the dying in Israel/Palestine. It's not s/he who hunts the whales. It's not s/he who abuses children. It's not s/he who beats a wife.... Need I go on?

[Sir Goulum]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: quote: Originally posted by Sir Goulum: I'm also a non believer like Jonny, and I agree with him. If there is a God, what is he doin? If he is all powerful then why doesn't he try and help us mere mortals??

Because that would be treating us all like babies. Personally, I'm an adult, I take responsibility for my actions, and I don't want some 'god' stepping in like mommy or daddy whenever I screw up. Thanks. If there is a god, it's not s/he who is torturing and killing people in Zimbabwe. It's not s/he who refuses to listen to reason and the voices of the dying in Israel/Palestine. It's not s/he who hunts the whales. It's not s/he who abuses children. It's not s/he who beats a wife.... Need I go on?[/QUOTE]Well when I look at it that way I see your point. But I still don't understand, if s/he even exists, why s/he doesn't even try the least little bit to help us? I mean with all the untreatable diseases like cancer, s/he could at least take away someof them from existence!

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Sir Goulum: quote: Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: quote: Originally posted by Sir Goulum: I'm also a non believer like Jonny, and I agree with him. If there is a God, what is he doin? If he is all powerful then why doesn't he try and help us mere mortals??

Because that would be treating us all like babies. Personally, I'm an adult, I take responsibility for my actions, and I don't want some 'god' stepping in like mommy or daddy whenever I screw up. Thanks. If there is a god, it's not s/he who is torturing and killing people in Zimbabwe. It's not s/he who refuses to listen to reason and the voices of the dying in Israel/Palestine. It's not s/he who hunts the whales. It's not s/he who abuses children. It's not s/he who beats a wife.... Need I go on?[/QUOTE]Well when I look at it that way I see your point. But I still don't understand, if s/he even exists, why s/he doesn't even try the least little bit to help us? I mean with all the untreatable diseases like cancer, s/he could at least take away someof them from existence![/QUOTE]Well, we could help ourselves quite a bit in that area, by, just for instance, not smoking, not stuffing ourselves with a whole load of crap processed food, using pesticides, and so on. Our environment is full of known carcinogens, most of which we've created ourselves for various reasons.

Of course, not all cancers are down to environmental factors, but we certainly could make things a whole lot easier for ourselves on that front if we wanted to. We don't choose to. That's where free will comes in. If we want to act irresponsibly in relation to our bodies, when we KNOW the potential consequences, then we are totally free to do that. But there are likely to be consequences. Cause and effect, you know!

Think about it. How would you like it if some god figure came along and said, right, no cancer, no heart attacks, but you cant eat burgers, fries, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, take drugs, eat icecream, drink coke, and so on and so forth. (There's lots of other things that raise the possibility of a person developing cancer etc, but I've left most of them out for brevity.... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Make sense?

[ 04-25-2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Silver Cheetah ]

[Sigmar]

Originally posted by Sir Goulum: I'm also a non believer like Jonny, and I agree with him. If there is a God, what is he doin? If he is all powerful then why doesn't he try and help us mere mortals??

A statement I used to think about a lot. Then I realised, now I know that this might seem a bit of a lame argument but why should he? Seriously he created the universe right? This includes Earth, along comes humanity in the gene pool and we manage to acknowledge God as our creator and all-mighty father. But then what do we do, start messing the planet up, so he then sends Jesus Christ his son who sacrifies himself to show us the way on the right path in life. Christianity is created but then what do we do? Continue to wreck the Earth, and peole keep using religion to start wars and fights, WHY? What the hell is the point? "My God is truly the merciful and glorius true God" "No my Gods are the true masters of kindness and love in the universe" "Since you happen to own something that belongs to me lets have a huge fight ober our beliefs" It's not always the case but it usually is though. So why should God help us more than has so already, I think humanity should prove it's worth to God again before it recieves more help.Besides God is there in everyone of us, helping us on our way towards the right path. Let's see if we reach it before it's too late.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Sigmar: quote: Originally posted by Sir Goulum: I'm also a non believer like Jonny, and I agree with him. If there is a God, what is he doin? If he is all powerful then why doesn't he try and help us mere mortals??

A statement I used to think about a lot. Then I realised, now I know that this might seem a bit of a lame argument but why should he? Seriously he created the universe right? This includes Earth, along comes humanity in the gene pool and we manage to acknowledge God as our creator and all-mighty father. But then what do we do, start messing the planet up, so he then sends Jesus Christ his son who sacrifies himself to show us the way on the right path in life. Christianity is created but then what do we do? Continue to wreck the Earth, and peole keep using religion to start wars and fights, WHY? What the hell is the point? "My God is truly the merciful and glorius true God" "No my Gods are the true masters of kindness and love in the universe" "Since you happen to own something that belongs to me lets have a huge fight ober our beliefs" It's not always the case but it usually is though. So why should God help us more than has so already, I think humanity should prove it's worth to God again before it recieves more help.Besides God is there in everyone of us, helping us on our way towards the right path. Let's see if we reach it before it's too late.[/QUOTE]Hmm, being as you brought it up (if inadvertently), why do Christians always refer to god as the 'father'?? I'm really not with this father, son and holy ghost thing. Where's the female principle? I've always thought that was a big problem with both Christianity and Islam, the lack of the feminine. Okay, there's Mary, but she's not divine, is she? If god created humans in 'its' image, then surely god encompasses both the male and the female, although to refer to it in terms of either does seem rather absurd. The absolute is the absolute, no? encompassing everything.... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Sigmar]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Hmm, being as you brought it up (if inadvertently), why do Christians always refer to god as the 'father'?? I'm really not with this father, son and holy ghost thing. Where's the female principle? I've always thought that was a big problem with both Christianity and Islam, the lack of the feminine. Okay, there's Mary, but she's not divine, is she? If god created humans in 'its' image, then surely god encompasses both the male and the female, although to refer to it in terms of either does seem rather absurd. The absolute is the absolute, no? encompassing everything.... [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QB]

Indeed you are correct Silver Cheetah, God is an "it", but we feel by calling it a he makes it feel closer to us. As you probably know males used to be the more important figures in the early days of man and so he was used instead of she. Let's just say old habbits die hard [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[Thoran]

Originally posted by AzureWolf: To me the whole debate seems rather useless, both are fundamentally founded upon faith. Either faith in your religion or faith in your science. Both espouse "facts" to throw at each other to try and turn the tables in the debate but when it comes down to it you have a belief in one or the other. Until either one can show unarguable proof that they are right it will continue. At this stage creationists put their faith into their personal experiences and the tenents of their religion, evolutionists put their faith into scientific discoveries and the enormous cosmos of the unknown yet to be discovered. So who is to say whos right? Either way you all have faith in what you believe is right.

As Sir Michael wrote, science is not about faith... it's about facts. In science, a concept is meaningless until it's proven, repeated, and rigorously tested by the Scientific community... until then it's hot air (and often treated as such).

There are however many who treat it like a religion... believing it can solve all of humanities problems. I think most scientists do not follow that line of thinking. Science is a tool to understand the world around us, not a belief system.

Personally I don't see why BOTH can't be right in the end. There is much of this reality that humanity doesn't understand, and it would be the height of hubris to assume because we can't see/smell/touch... something that it doesn't exist. God is something I HOPE exists, and I don't believe his existance would change in any way the validity of the work scientists do. Of course I'm in no way a bible literalist, so the teachings of the bible... as a guide to a good life, I believe to fully mesh with my scientific and technical work.

I think of it this way... if God was so amazing as to create a reality so intricately woven, from subatomic particles to Clusters of galexies... why would he leave himself out of it? Shouldn't his existance be woven into the fabric somewhere... and fit perfectly with every other piece that makes up the universe (which Science works to understand)?

If he doesn't exist than it changes nothing in my opinion, the Universe is still every bit as amazing, our existance just as much a miracle. And science will continue to try to understand it.

RE: Religon - To me religon is a wonderful support system that help people through the tough times... but organized religon is ultimately run by human beings, and that's where it falls apart. When a Religous institution has Political Power... well that's where it totally goes to hell. Historically and today, religon and politics is an explosive combination. The "faith" part of religon should be a faith in yourself and your relationship with God... not a faith in some other guy to lead you to the promised land. The problem with faith in other men (even religous men) is that can leave people more susceptable to abuse by those men. A constituency of people who have faith in you is a dream come true for a politician, like lambs to the slaughter. Never trade in your free will and thought for faith in what another human tells you and you'll be pretty immune to the abuses that have been blamed on religon in the past. IMO - religon was never the problem... but rather the fact that such power over others attracts the WRONG kind of person just as much as the right.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Sigmar: quote: Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Hmm, being as you brought it up (if inadvertently), why do Christians always refer to god as the 'father'?? I'm really not with this father, son and holy ghost thing. Where's the female principle? I've always thought that was a big problem with both Christianity and Islam, the lack of the feminine. Okay, there's Mary, but she's not divine, is she? If god created humans in 'its' image, then surely god encompasses both the male and the female, although to refer to it in terms of either does seem rather absurd. The absolute is the absolute, no? encompassing everything.... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Indeed you are correct Silver Cheetah, God is an "it", but we feel by calling it a he makes it feel closer to us. As you probably know males used to be the more important figures in the early days of man and so he was used instead of she. Let's just say old habbits die hard [img]smile.gif[/img] .[/QB][/QUOTE]Time the concept got an upgrade, if you ask me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I propose we call he/she/it/them 's/he', and replace 'son' with the slighter warmer and more user-friendly 'hon'.

As for the holey spirit, I'm happy to leave her as she is. Let's just hope nothing essential drops out.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Thoran: [QB]As Sir Michael wrote, science is not about faith... it's about facts. In science, a concept is meaningless until it's proven, repeated, and rigorously tested by the Scientific community... until then it's hot air (and often treated as such). QB]

I don't have any fundamental problem with science - rational thought is a great thing.... However, if science is always about facts, how come scientists around the globe disagree almost to the point of coming to blows on any number of major issues? Global warming, for instance. Science would like to be about facts, but the fact is, the world is just too fecking complex to fit into some of the models and theories we hold about it. (A lot of what people accept as objective fact is actually subjective theory which is accepted as fact because it supports the worldview of the person using the so called fact to bolster his/her argument.) Hence the large numbers of disagreements, and hence the doubts about the 'factual' nature of all scientific thought. There is also the question of who is funding scientific research, what use the information gained is going to be put to, and by who, who gains and who loses from discoveries made, and so forth. Another reason for conflict, and another reason to doubt much of what is presented in the guise of 'fact'.

(Those interested in the nature of science might like to read Thomas Kuhn, who argues that science proceeds not primarily through the patient accretion of facts, but by revolutionary interpretative shifts in which one scientific paradigm displaces another. His work raises the question of the rationality of science.)

Like I said, I'm no science debunker. Just an interested observer.

[ 04-25-2002, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Silver Cheetah ]

[Azred]

That is a much more complex issue. Patriarchal societies give rise to patriarchal religions; that is the simple answer.

Digging a little further...the Holy Spirit is the "feminine" aspect of the Trinity. It nurtures, guides, and comforts. This kind of Trinity is very old: Osiris the Father, Isis the Mother/Spirit, and Horus the Son is an early example.

Mary, the Holy Virgin, was originally not divine. However, as the Catholic Church spread into new areas they inevitably ran into older religions that possessed a central female divinity (the Isis Cult, ranging from Egypt through the Middle East and up into Europe; found even in Poly/Micronesian cultures). In order to gain a "foothold" with these people, Mary was "promoted" in importance--indeed, many non-Christians initially identified very closely and very quickly with Mary as a central divinity, which is why she is so widely venerated and is so "popular". It could even be stated that Mary is the linchpin that holds the Catholic theological belief structure in place; however, let those who are Catholic correct me, if they so choose. Find "Myth and Ritual in Christianity" (I forgot the author's name) for more information about this (and other topics).