Fighter > Cleric vs. Fighter > Mage

[darkmage]

A battle mage sure looks better than a battle priest ...

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by darkmage: A battle mage sure looks better than a battle priest ...

darkmage,

Yes, I haven't thought it through, but on the surface it appears that a correctly built Battle Mage ought to be able to beat a correctly built "Battle Priest" (nice term you coined) in a head to head fight. But a party really needs a Cleric, and a "battle priest" ("Battle Cleric" ?) sure looks a lot better than a Single Class (SC) Cleric.

EDIT: Here is the breakdown for several characters of equal XP that you might find about 3/4 of the way through a normal difficulty game that includes the HoW and TotLM expansions. The F/C is a DC. Both Clerics assume a +3 weapon. The Fighter is assumed to have found a +4 weapon. Assumes all characters have STR=CON=18, and WIS=18 for Clerics (yes, we are power gaming, here). "Dm.0" is an estimate of the average damage per round that the character inflicts upon an enemy with AC=0. Likewise, "Dm.-12" is the average damage per round that the character inflicts upon a much tougher opponent with AC= -12. "#SP" is the total # of spell slots the character can has, and "SLVL" is the highest Spell level that the character can memorize. The "#SP" for the C(19) is a guesstimate, since I only made in-game charts to C(15):

Character __|__XP___|__HP_|_THAC0_|_ApR_|_Dm.0_|_Dm.-12_|_#SP_|_SLVL_|
Fighter(18) _|_2600K_|_153_|___-8 __|_ 3.5_|_59.5 _|__53.6 __|__0__|__ 0___|
F(13)/C(14)_|_2600K_|_140_|___-2 __|_ 3.5_|_56.0 _|__33.6 __|_35__|__ 7___|
Cleric(19) __|_2600K_|_110_|___+4 __|_ 1.0_|__9.9 _|___3.3 __|_47__|__ 7___|

The chart doesn't tell the whole story: For instance, the Cleric's "Turn Undead" ability is 5 levels better than the F/C; and the Fighter is stacking up PP in a secondary weapon. And the story will change slightly as the characters level a few more times before the end of the game: As the SC Fighter's THAC0 improves with each CLVL, the DC will appear to be a little worse in comparison, especially against the really tough opponents. (This is not taking spells/buffs into account.) Also, the Fighter's HP will gain over the F/C very slightly. Meanwhile, the DC and the SC Clerics gain slots at roughly the same rate, so the difference of 12 slots between them will become less important as they both acumulate lots of slots.

There is no doubt in my mind which character I would want in my party in the late game.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 05-26-2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Azred]

I enjoy using battle priests, especially for HoF mode. Take NobleNick's example of F13/C14...this priest gets +4 to stats when using Draw Upon Holy Might, which is really great when combined with a Potion of Speed. Curiously, drinking a Potion of Giant Strength and then casting DUHM will stack. [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img] In my last game, my battle priest's DUHM would set his strength, dexterity, and constitution to 25; the +7 to hit and +14 damage from base strength is really nice, as is the -7 to AC and temporary hit point gain. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] If using the Ring of Reckless Action and the Fast Flail, the battle priest can be attacking four times each round. The numbers speak for themsleves.

Sadly, the only character class which doesn't seem to be able to take advantage of the ridiculously powerful levels over 20 is the bard. No offense, NobleNick. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] Nevertheless, the high damage and/or long spell durations come in handy.

[Aerich]

Nothing at all wrong with battle priests. Adding a Righteous Wrath of the Faithful into Azred's mix is awesome as well. I find that a battle priest dishes better melee damage than a battle mage, but the battle mage has better (and quicker, initiative-wise) options for causing mass damage.

Try this - combine a battle priest (with Protection from Fire) with a battle mage - fully buffed, of course. Battle priest does the melee fighting, battle mage casts sunfires. I used this combo, in conjunction with the druid's stalker (summon shambling mounds) to clear Gloomfrost in a twinkling. The bard's lvl 26 haste (duration, duration, duration) helped, too.

[Aerich]

The bard still does fairly well over lvl 20. The key is to use uncapped, level-dependant spells like Skull Trap and Mordenkainen's Force Missiles. A high level bard is really just another mage, with some perks to make up for fewer high-level spells.

[NobleNick]

A & A,

My only big beef about the Bard was the lack of song growth after CLVL11. Still, she is an excellent Mage in the late game, and an awesome team asset in the mid-game and later if in with a party of big bruisers.

O.K., we need to stop for a bit. We are going to ruin Marty4's reformation; and you two are going to drive me over the edge of IWD powergamer ecstasy!

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 05-31-2005, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Marty4]

Originally posted by NobleNick: A & A, My only big beef about the Bard was the lack of song growth after CLVL11. Still, she is an excellent Mage in the late game, and an awesome team asset in the mid-game and later if in with a party of big bruisers. O.K., we need to stop for a bit. We are going to ruin Marty4's reformation; and you two are going to drive me over the edge of IWD powergamer ecstasy! -------------------- What's a party, without a song? Bards ROCK! Party On!!

Heh. I've solved that with a new sig.

[Azred]

I agree with the bard still being very useful even after gaining War Chant of Sith.

Picture the lovely 30th-level bard Kaylisa casting Mind Blank, Cat's Grace, Blur, Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, Globe of Invulnerability, Mordenkainen's Sword, Haste, and (finally) Tenser's Transformation. I think she had nearly 250 hit points, 2 or 3 attacks per round with a ranged melee weapon, a drastically lowered Thac0, and was nearly invulnerable to magic spells while suffering no physical damage. Equal to any super-buffed fighter, I think.

I like Aerich's idea of a "tag team" battle mage and battle priest. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

[krunchyfrogg]

Your THAC0 would continue to improve (and would be the same between both characters) if they were multiclassed and not dualclassed.