US treatment of prisoners (actual video footage)

[shamrock_uk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/40...8_myrie_vi.ram

(real media stream)

Can't really think of a comment for this, it speaks for itself. Also witness the common practice of sensory deprivation amongst Iraqi's in the streets, plus of course the stories of torture coming from guantanemo.

Not particularly looking to start a debate on this one (maybe it'll be spontaneous [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) but it's current and an important event, so here it goes [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-29-2004, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Memnoch]

[img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] Yeah, well, isolated incident or not, it doesn't look good, does it. The obvious comeback is that Iraqi soldiers were guilty of much more heinous war crimes, but two wrongs don't make a right. Apparently six soldiers are being courtmartialled for these hijinks, but these pics will do wonders for regional trust and unity, eh.

[promethius9594]

actually, memnoch, the obvious come back would probably go more along the lines of "no torture actually occurred."

the courts martial will probably send those soldiers home, but realize that the "torture" those people were put through doesnt even amount to one day in the life of any american POW's in vietnam. last time i checked, it isnt against the geneva convention to scare the crap out of a prisoner and make them think you'll torture them, only to actual things which will cause harm.

although, i agree, for regional stability and healthy public relations, these soldiers should not have done this, shouldnt have taken pictures, and should be courtsmartialed and sent home.

[Timber Loftis]

Sorry, my realplayer is busted (access issues/firewall, etc. with my firm) -- so I'll just have to imagine it. Wish I could view it.

[shamrock_uk]

It is against the Geneva Convention to subject prisoners to "degrading or humiliating treatment" however. Some of the pictures now being shown (that were blanked out in the clip) have two marines doing a thumbs-up for the cameras beside a heap of what looks like 10 naked iraqi's made to lie on top of each other.

But seriously promethius, if we forget regional stability and public relations for the moment, you would consider that kind of behaviour acceptable in a marine?

We should perhaps remember the American outrage over the footage of the three US pow's shown (fully clothed i might add) on television. Imagine if the situation was reversed, and those were American prisoners and Iraqi guards...I can't help thinking that your stance might be a little different then.

What i'm really amazed at is the media censorship going on in the US though. Despite it being front page news across the entire world, in the US only one newspaper carried the story, and that was only a local one because most of the marines were from that area. On CNN.com you have to hunt really hard to find it, and I can't see it on abcnews.com at all.

[EDIT] Just for you Timber [img]smile.gif[/img]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdon...18DE54510B.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...nergrab203.jpg

I can't find anymore individual pictures than that, they're all in video I'm afraid. [/EDIT]

[ 04-30-2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[shamrock_uk]

And for promethius, the relevent article of the geneva convention. Note the reference to 'intimidation,' 'public curiosity' and 'humane treatment.'

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment
of Prisoners of War

Adopted on 12 August 1949

Article 13


"Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

"Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

"Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited."

[ 04-30-2004, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Timber Loftis]

Thanks for the images. Enough to whet my appetite to see more, but not enough for me to really comment yet. Still, much appreciated.

[Dreamer128]

Bush "disgusted" over Iraq abuse

President George W Bush says he shares the widespread international revulsion at the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US guards at a notorious Baghdad jail.
As the graphic pictures were beamed across the world, Mr Bush said he was disgusted and vowed that those responsible would be "taken care of".

One of the images shows a hooded and naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals.

Last month, the US army suspended 17 soldiers over alleged prisoner abuses.

Elsewhere in Iraq, US marines have begun withdrawing from the Iraqi city of Falluja after a month of bloody clashes with rebels.
Two battalions have been pulling back from front-line positions and are set to move further out during the day.

A new Iraqi force, led by one of Saddam Hussein's former generals, is expected to move into the city while the US maintains a presence outside the flashpoint city.

Slow reaction

Six soldiers - including a brigadier general - are facing court martial in Iraq, and a possible prison term over the POW pictures taken at the notorious Abu Ghraib detention facility in Baghdad and broadcasts by CBS television on Thursday.

The naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted, CBS said.

Another image shows naked prisoners being forced to simulate sex acts. In another, a female soldier, with a cigarette in her mouth, simulates holding a gun and pointing at a naked Iraqi's genitals.

CBS News said it delayed the broadcast for two weeks after a request from the Pentagon due to the tensions in Iraq.

"I shared a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated. I didn't like it one bit," President Bush said in Washington.

The people who are alleged to have carried out the abuse "do not reflect the nature of men and women we sent overseas", Mr Bush added.

"That's not the way we do things in America."

The pictures did not initially cause much of a stir in America.

This is partly because any criticism of US troops while they are dying in Iraq is liable to be extremely unpopular in the US, says the BBC's Justin Webb in Washington.

The political debate in America has turned now to the issue of the numbers of US soldiers dying in Iraq.
ABC's Nightline, an influential evening current affairs television programme, is to hold a reading tonight of all the names of the American dead.

Politicians in Britain and the Middle East have expressed disgust at the images.

A spokesman for UK Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was "appalled" and described the incident as regrettable.

Adnan Al-Pachachi, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, said it would create a great deal of anger and discontent among Iraqis already concerned about security in the country.

But he rejected a comparison with the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad during the days of Saddam Hussein.

"I don't think you can compare the two. Saddam Hussein's prisoners were not only tortured but executed. It was much worse than what is there now."

One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."

[Source: BBC]

[promethius9594]

shamrock, i think you misunderstand...

what i was saying is that the geneva convention violation is debateable, but i still advocate the courtsmarshal for the offenders. i dont think what they did was right, but when compared to the torture that other countries employ, its not going to be labelled a violation of the geneva convention.

[Dreamer128]

New photos show British soldiers torturing Iraqi

The British army has ordered an investigation of the abuse of an Iraqi prisoner at the hands of British soldiers. The Daily Mirror newspaper published eight photos on Friday showing a blindfolded man being kicked and beaten. The newspaper says it got the photos from two British soldiers involved in the incident.

The publication of the photos is deeply embarrassing for Prime Minister Tony Blair. Hours earlier, he strongly condemned the US soldiers who tortured Iraqi prisoners. He then had to repeat the condemnation, but this time about his own soldiers.

(rnw.nl)