Treatment of prisoners (yep, those ones...)

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:


That is why I have begun using the *generic* 'you', etc (and tagged it as such). This way perhaps some misunderstanding may be avoided.

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Fair enough, but let me add then that I think most people feel the same way about this, so not everybody would blame the US if things went awry and praise the rest of the world if things went well. It really sad that some Americans have to feel so paranoid about the rest of the world's opinion on them. I can assure you that I've never encountered any "anti-americanism" in my country.

[Nachtrafe]

quote:

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Originally posted by Konfuzed and Zany:
I never said they WERE mistreated
I just said they shouldn't be
This in reaction to people who said they wouldn;t care if they were mistreated

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Well...like I said earlier...I may be called a barbarian, but its fortunate for these prisoners that I'm not a governmental agency. I'm just a pissed off American who has a good friend who lost family in the WTC. If I were in charge conditions would be *VASTLY* different.

[WOLFGIR]

Ah bugger I did have to post and read them all.. :S

Well according to the US vs them, I have to agree with Melusine. But also, we have had threats in Europe too, how do you think British people like the fact that US have had IRA supporters based over there??

The world is far more complicated then that. However all terrorism in my humble view is wrong, because terrorists attack civil interests, civil people. Hence, they are not civil, they are not soldiers, and US could attack Afghanistan because quite frankly, nobody cared about Afghanistan. Nobody of the "civilised western" countries objected to the attacks, and US have before told the world (since US can actually) told terrorists that massdestructive weapons and attacks will be met by force wherever they are.

If the Al-Quaida had targeted a military fascility, they had attakced the army, a military action, hence they would be soldiers.

We can sit all day and bounce "definitions" rules about right and wrong as long as we will.

When will the topic, how can we use globalisation to stop terror attacks? How can we ensure all people "human rights"?

Human rights is a luaghing matter for the majority on this planet, so I won´t loose sleep if some murderers have to live in a dog pound..

What is mostly interesting for me is actually the fact that Cuba has said publicly that they will catch any of thoose that "might" escape and turn them back, not very likely they escape, but Cuba US relations.. Now that is something that can change lives for the better for many people.

Some crappy 2 cents from me! Now I´m off to get coffee..

[Donut]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe:


Guys right under Mullah Omar and Osama. Al-Queda officers that helped plan terrorist attacks around the world, including the USS Cole, the first WTC attack, the US Embassies, and Sept 11th. These people are scum, and they need to be eliminated ASAP.

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You can't possibly know this Nachtrafe. At least two of the British prisoners did not dissapear from their homes in Britain until after Sept 11. They are 20/21 years old so it is doubtful they could have been part of the planning team for the attacks you list. I'm not denying that they were members of Al Quieda.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe:

Actually, that's generally how dangerous crimials are handled the (civilized) world over. As my (crotchety old) grandpa used to say..."You dont give a mad dog a chance to bite ya."

As to the pictures...those were released by the left-wing candy-asses in the American media to drum up sympathy for the 'poor mistreated/misunderstood/abused Al-Queda 'freedom fighters'.

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Nachtrafe & Garnet, I haven't questioned the need for thesre measures. But this was the worst that they were treated and it was these images that were released. I disagree that these were released to drum up sympathy for the prisoners, I think they were released to assuage public opinion in the US which I understand supports this action. Who took these photographs, was it a newspaper photographer invited in or someone from the military? Eithway the news was being stage managed by the authorities, I can't believe that they released these by accident.

[Konfuzed and Zany]

quote:

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Originally posted by Melusine:


OK thanks for making that clear, and I agree with you.
Just try to make sure everybody knows what you are talking about in the future then, because as you see people (including me) misread your posts.

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Ha!
So who's Konfuzed now ey

[Nachtrafe]

quote:

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Originally posted by Melusine:



Fair enough, but let me add then that I think most people feel the same way about this, so not everybody would blame the US if things went awry and praise the rest of the world if things went well. It really sad that some Americans have to feel so paranoid about the rest of the world's opinion on them. I can assure you that I've never encountered any "anti-americanism" in my country.

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I have to disagree with you Mel. Its not being paranoid. Its simply reacting to a pretty prevalent attitude. There is a lot of anti-american sentiment out in the rest of the world. Even in nice places like IW. Granted, you're not one of the bashers, but there are still a lot of them out there.

[Konfuzed and Zany]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe:


Well...like I said earlier...I may be called a barbarian, but its fortunate for these prisoners that I'm not a governmental agency. I'm just a pissed off American who has a good friend who lost family in the WTC. If I were in charge conditions would be *VASTLY* different.

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I understand where you're coming from
But i just
I just don;t think mistreating someone will make up for somebody else's death
But maybe I feel this way because of the Dutch "Curing rather then punishing prisoners" sentiment
Get the Anger out
and you'll get the Evil out

again just my 2 cents (that makes 8 cents and i only have 1 Euro )

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Nachtrafe:


I have to disagree with you Mel. Its not being paranoid. Its simply reacting to a pretty prevalent attitude. There is a lot of anti-american sentiment out in the rest of the world. Even in nice places like IW. Granted, you're not one of the bashers, but there are still a lot of them out there.

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And there are a lot of Americans mistaking disagreement with US actions for anti-americanism. The term as I define it is an illogical hatred of all things American, just like racism. It's hating everything the Americans do, just as a knee-jerk reaction, an automatism, not grounded on careful consideration of the facts. Sorry but I don't think anybody feels that way about you on IW. And I think it's hurtful to Barry if people accuse him of anti-americanism. He disagrees with most things the US governments does, but that's just the logical result of his political views - he doesn't hate Americans or America per se, which is what many people imply here. BTW, I cannot speak for Barry of course, so correct any misunderstandings here, but this is how I understand the situation. No one here would hate, hurt or kill an American on view, which is what some of the terrorists would do. THAT is anti-american. Frankly, what *I*'m getting sick of is the fact that disagreeing with the prevalent American opinion is seen as american-bashing.

[Melusine]

In addition:
What most Americans don't seem to grasp is that the whole notion of hating a nation (or loving it for that matter) is just... illogical to most other countries. I regard people as individuals, no matter where they come from, and without meaning to offend, comments like "I'd rather see a thousand people of nationality X killed than a single American" are sickening me. You compare it to putting your family before all others, and that notion is indeed familiar to me but hey, you KNOW and LOVE your family - how can you know and love all the people living in your country? There are murderers and rapists between them, same as in any other country. I'm just saying, the fear that people in other countries hate America is illogical. We don't have this fanatical patriotism either, we don't think in terms of countries. No sensible European would hate all Americans - and so they don't.

[Barry the Sprout]

Wolfgir - a lot of your post was covered earlier. The Geneva convention is international law, it concerns even those who haven't signed it. Also, as Konfused pointed out, it applies to everyone no matter what they did or who they attacked. That is the point of it, it covers everyone.

Mel - Thanks! God, it was nice to read that right then...

Nachtrafe - By using the same drum constantly do you mean that I use every event to attack the US? OK, might that be because:

1. We are talking about an action in which no other country is involved. Would you like me to say that this is disgraceful because Tony Blair is treating the prisoners badly? I do so hope that wouldn't offend...

2. The US is the most powerful ont eh world stage right now. Most major events around the world are US dominated, if I find some fault in them then the US is likely to be involved. Along with other countries. It can't have escaped your notice that in the war forum I only talk about the US when I mean the US, most of the time I will refer to what I hate as Western Capitalism. The US is the biggest of those countries sure, but it isn't the only one.

This is my last word on the matter. If you don't have any respect for what I write then fine. You and me both know where we stand. I get this horrible feeling you will reply to this post, but this is where I walk away so don't expect any more out of me on the subject.

To allay any other fears about me being an american basher I am off to start a "Top ten reasons to hate the British" thread. I limit it to ten because I don't think Ziroc's server would cope with all of my bile on the subject. Can't start it right now actually, I have a class. Give me a couple of hours.