Multi-classing - Old vs. New...

[Callum Kerr]

My main quibble (lovely word ) is the fact that you can't raise a stat beyond 20 (if it has a +2 bonus). I mean, I don't approve of totally minimizing int and cha... but if i lower them a little bit (for example - the classic stupid ugly berserker barbarian) for role-playing purposes... because barbarians aren't meant to be smart - or pretty for that matter... then i have to put points into wisdom and dexterity... which doesn't work for me... if ur guy is stupid, how is he gonna be really wise?

Which leads to my minor quibble (there's that excellent word again ) wisdom should be tied to intelligence a bit... like within 2 points. You CANNOT be as thick as three (or is it six?) short planks and have the most wisdom in the world... Plus I think that saving throws should not be wisdom... (or is it only will saves) If I want a stupid half-orc, I don't want him to be jinxed all the time... he can still be strong-minded even if he doesn't have a strong mind... if u know what i mean

[Jack of Speed]

I think they use an absent minded professor scenario to describe High INT Low Wis Characters and vice versa. Why cant you have a guy who is "Street Smart" but has problems reading NUMBERS... where you have a very book smart individual who makes the mistake of saying "Get out of my way JERK!" at a local Ale house and gets shived in the McRibs for it. They dont necesarily have anything to do with each other. As for your will saving throws, they can be boosted with feats such as 'Bullheaded' and 'Iron Will' and from an RP PoV that should take care of your Half Orc.

[Nightowl2]

The basic char creation in 3rd ed is based on dice rolls as before (though they have 4d6, take the 3 highest). There is a point buy system as an alternate (in the DMG), but it is much more restrictive than the one in IWD2, and you can't mess with lowering one stat to increase others. The only adjustments are the ones for different races. Ergo, some characters could start as high as 20 in something (Halfling dex, for instance), just like here.

Nightowl2

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Jack of Speed: I think they use an absent minded professor scenario to describe High INT Low Wis Characters and vice versa. Why cant you have a guy who is "Street Smart" but has problems reading NUMBERS... where you have a very book smart individual who makes the mistake of saying "Get out of my way JERK!" at a local Ale house and gets shived in the McRibs for it. They dont necesarily have anything to do with each other. As for your will saving throws, they can be boosted with feats such as 'Bullheaded' and 'Iron Will' and from an RP PoV that should take care of your Half Orc.

It took me YEARS to understand the difference between Intelligence and Wisdom.

Intelligence is the abilities of the characters to learna nd remembers things, in a MAthematical point of view.
Wisdom is the ability to tell what is wrong or right in a given sircumstance.

Lets take this example. a 18 int character and a 18 wis are being pursued by a pack of demons, and they get to a suspended bridge that has seen better days.

The 18 int low wis character is going to calculate the percentage chance of the bridge breaking out under him if he goes. Including such factors as the wind, humidity, age of the bridge, his weight,...

While the 18 wis low int chraracter will simply ask himself what is safer between crossing the bridge now, or taking the risk of following the clift for another bridge that would hopefully be in bettter condition, and act NOW.

A high intelligence low wis character is like a robot. He has lot of knowledge, but don't know how to use it very well. He is the book smart individual who makes the mistake of saying "Get out of my way JERK!" to the big thug in the seedy poart of town.

A high Wisdom low int character has no special knowledge, but he has instinct. Just like a cat. A cat can't read, talk, or understand things as human do. But you can be sure he won't try attacking a wolf. Why? Because he has common sense. He also know where to find food and water. An example of that kind of character would be the child that has been raised by animals, like Tarzan. He is not the smartest indivudual, but he is wise.

Detecting and understanding what happen around you is based on the wisdom stats. A low wisdom individual won't know when someone is mocking him, or lying to him. A good example is the "joke" we often see in movies. The nerd who get hit on by the very sexy girl, and think she is serious, but she is only mocking him, or trying to get something.

A individual with high wisdom would say something like "Yeah right! Get away from me!" While the low wisdom one would say something like "UGGHughu arrrr huhgu...."

Wisdom is instinct, common sense, good judgement, and such. It's also willpower.

Intelligence is the mathematical aspect of learning. 1+1=2. Learning multiple language, if I move my hands that way and that way, and then make that litle starange movement while waving that focus, and say certain words, I can create a flame,...

So, a barbarian could not have much knowledge, but you bet it take some good instinct and common sense to survive in the wild...

I hope that helped you a little.

[Callum Kerr]

That is not really how I think of wisdom... but it helps with justifying high saves
I still think of wisdom as being WISE (duh! ) like an old person who has seen a lot... actually - wisdom to me is very closely tied to experience...
I don't know if instincts are wisdom... I tend to think of wisdom as things that you have learnt that help you make good/correct decisions - which ties in with intelligence... but hell, its the programmer's view points that count in the game...

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Callum Kerr: That is not really how I think of wisdom... but it helps with justifying high saves I still think of wisdom as being WISE (duh! ) like an old person who has seen a lot... actually - wisdom to me is very closely tied to experience... I don't know if instincts are wisdom... I tend to think of wisdom as things that you have learnt that help you make good/correct decisions - which ties in with intelligence... but hell, its the programmer's view points that count in the game...

Actyually, it's the views of the guys who made D&D 25+ years ago.

I agree that those two stats are confusing. And they don't do a good job of explainng it.

[Madrigal Five]

Maybe INT is logic-based and WIS is abstract/holistic reasoning? Maybe Callum Kerr's notion of Wisdom as "...things that you have learnt that help you make good/correct decisions..." isn't incompatible with Luvian's description of it as, among other things, "common sense", since common sense isn't something we're born with, but is also something that we learn as we grow up.

Remember when Data of the Star Trek: Next Generation TV series got an android "daughter"? When she told him, "you are very wise, father," Data replied, "It is the difference between knowledge and experience."

I don't know why I thought of that. Just seemed relevant.