Pedophiles and the Church: What should be done? - Page 2

02-06-2002, 01:43 PM

The History Channel is running an episode of "The History of Sex" dealing with the history behind the christian based churches throughout history..And dove tails well with what Garnet just posted. It is an honest historical look at some of the efforts the church and governments have made toward regulating sex and sexuality..and on their efforts to prevent and punish..."unnatural" acts.

Just thought the show was a timely one for this thread, I saw it last night.

Garnet FalconDance · 02-06-2002, 01:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
[QB]I have never in my life ever heard of any study showing the celebacy leads to pedophilia...Pedophilia is a sick, twisted perversion that is caused more by lack of morales and character than lack of nookie.QB]

No, MagiK, I think it is being asked is pedophilia (in this instance only) a by-product of celibacy within a close community.

Otherwise, I agree with you and would use a whole lot stronger language if we were discussing it over coffee!

02-06-2002, 02:00 PM

uhh I forgot to address the issue of what should be done when this type of thing occours.

A quick merciful death is probably the best thing for the community affected by these types of predators..but if left to my own devices, the person in question wouldnt get off that easy. I think a slow, painful death is way more fitting..(I may be biased due to being a parent) Of course that would be vengence and well religiously we are supposed to leave that to the lord.....still.....

Garnet FalconDance · 02-06-2002, 02:06 PM

I've often wondered--and perhaps one of you can come up with a historical account--what would happen if the punishment were left to the victims. Presumably some would forgive but also would not want other children to suffer the same fate. Should a punishment such as castration be enacted--though that would not always work as there are still ways to victimize and torture others without sexual organs and it could also lead to sadastic resentment......

What, indeed, would be a fitting punishment? If 'left to God', these people will continue their acts. A few may finally see the error and genuinely feel remorse and shame (and make recompense), but of the total, how many would not?

02-06-2002, 02:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
I've often wondered--and perhaps one of you can come up with a historical account--what would happen if the punishment were left to the victims. Presumably some would forgive but also would not want other children to suffer the same fate. Should a punishment such as castration be enacted--though that would not always work as there are still ways to victimize and torture others without sexual organs and it could also lead to sadastic resentment......

What, indeed, would be a fitting punishment? If 'left to God', these people will continue their acts. A few may finally see the error and genuinely feel remorse and shame (and make recompense), but of the total, how many would not?

I think it would be kind of cruel to make the victims think of the punishment, afterall they are by definition too young to have to be facing these sorts of issues...Children should not have to worry or suffer about adults abusing them.

Mouse · 02-06-2002, 02:34 PM

I have a simple way of looking at this situation. In these cases where Ecclesiastical Law may conflict with Criminal or Civil Law (as generally exists in a state with reasonable Human Rights protection), then the Civil and Criminal Law takes precedence.

If the Church Authorities collude to cover up crimes, then it is reasonable to charge those so acting with conspiracy.

Garnet FalconDance · 02-06-2002, 02:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:

I think it would be kind of cruel to make the victims think of the punishment, afterall they are by definition too young to have to be facing these sorts of issues...Children should not have to worry or suffer about adults abusing them.

I would agree with you in general, but I was thinking more of the victims mentioned in the cases (originally in this post and others in Boston) who are a little older. ::shrugs:: I didn't mean for them to think up the punishment, I just wonder what their idea of justice would consist of..........

Children should *never* be made to suffer or be abused, period. But it's a sad fact of life that some are. No matter how vigilant the rest of us are, there is always a predator waiting to strike.

Cloudbringer · 02-06-2002, 02:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
I wouldn't think that celibacy leads to pedophilia. I beleive that these priests are already have these sexual tendancies, but may be able to keep them "hidden" before entering the priesthood.

It is reprehensible for any priest/pastor/bishop/deacon or ANY authority figure of ANY religious denomination to behave in such a manner - and inexcusable if they are not permanently removed from that position once their actions become known.

Bravo! Two points I'll make.. celibacy does not *force* a person to do anything. It is an INDIVIDUAL choice based on the person's needs/wants/religious beliefs/philosophy, what have you. Celibacy does not lead to pedophilia for goodness sake! How many NON church member pedophiles are there, hmm?

What I think happens is that we are especially shocked when someone in a position of trust with children, betrays that trust. Think of daycare centers where workers molest children! I agree, anyone in a position of authority or trust is someone we don't want to see take up hurting children (or anyone else for that matter)!

Cloudy

02-06-2002, 02:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
What I think happens is that we are especially shocked when someone in a position of trust with children, betrays that trust. Think of daycare centers where workers molest children! I agree, anyone in a position of authority or trust is someone we don't want to see take up hurting children (or anyone else for that matter)!
Cloudy

I agree 100% Cloudy.

Yorick · 02-06-2002, 10:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by fable:

As other churches allow marriage in the priesthood, is the problem the issue of celibacy in the RCC, in your opinion? Or is celibacy okay, and the problem lies with inadequate enforcement of self-imposed discipline within the RCC? Or something else?

I don't believe in institutionalised celibacy for Priests. It is not Biblical, and should be a personal choice. Paul recommends being single, yet allows for marriage, and so should the Roman Catholic Church IMO.

Almost every other Christian denomination allows Preachers and Pastors to marry, and recognise the importance of family support to a ministry.

Whether the said celibacy causes pedophilia or not is not something I have an opinion on.

02-06-2002, 01:45 PM	#12
Garnet FalconDance Mephistopheles Join Date: August 30, 2001 Location: deep within the sylvan splendor.... Age: 60 Posts: 1,443	quote: Originally posted by MagiK: [QB]I have never in my life ever heard of any study showing the celebacy leads to pedophilia...Pedophilia is a sick, twisted perversion that is caused more by lack of morales and character than lack of nookie.QB] No, MagiK, I think it is being asked is pedophilia (in this instance only) a by-product of celibacy within a close community. Otherwise, I agree with you and would use a whole lot stronger language if we were discussing it over coffee! __________________ "Nature tells every secret once." Ralph Waldo Emerson

02-06-2002, 02:06 PM	#14
Garnet FalconDance Mephistopheles Join Date: August 30, 2001 Location: deep within the sylvan splendor.... Age: 60 Posts: 1,443	I've often wondered--and perhaps one of you can come up with a historical account--what would happen if the punishment were left to the victims. Presumably some would forgive but also would not want other children to suffer the same fate. Should a punishment such as castration be enacted--though that would not always work as there are still ways to victimize and torture others without sexual organs and it could also lead to sadastic resentment...... What, indeed, would be a fitting punishment? If 'left to God', these people will continue their acts. A few may finally see the error and genuinely feel remorse and shame (and make recompense), but of the total, how many would not? __________________ "Nature tells every secret once." Ralph Waldo Emerson

02-06-2002, 02:26 PM	#15
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance: I've often wondered--and perhaps one of you can come up with a historical account--what would happen if the punishment were left to the victims. Presumably some would forgive but also would not want other children to suffer the same fate. Should a punishment such as castration be enacted--though that would not always work as there are still ways to victimize and torture others without sexual organs and it could also lead to sadastic resentment...... What, indeed, would be a fitting punishment? If 'left to God', these people will continue their acts. A few may finally see the error and genuinely feel remorse and shame (and make recompense), but of the total, how many would not? I think it would be kind of cruel to make the victims think of the punishment, afterall they are by definition too young to have to be facing these sorts of issues...Children should not have to worry or suffer about adults abusing them.

02-06-2002, 02:34 PM	#16
Mouse Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,788	I have a simple way of looking at this situation. In these cases where Ecclesiastical Law may conflict with Criminal or Civil Law (as generally exists in a state with reasonable Human Rights protection), then the Civil and Criminal Law takes precedence. If the Church Authorities collude to cover up crimes, then it is reasonable to charge those so acting with conspiracy. __________________ Regards Mouse (Occasional crooner and all round friendly Scottish rodent)

02-06-2002, 02:35 PM	#17
Garnet FalconDance Mephistopheles Join Date: August 30, 2001 Location: deep within the sylvan splendor.... Age: 60 Posts: 1,443	quote: Originally posted by MagiK: I think it would be kind of cruel to make the victims think of the punishment, afterall they are by definition too young to have to be facing these sorts of issues...Children should not have to worry or suffer about adults abusing them. I would agree with you in general, but I was thinking more of the victims mentioned in the cases (originally in this post and others in Boston) who are a little older. ::shrugs:: I didn't mean for them to think up the punishment, I just wonder what their idea of justice would consist of.......... Children should never be made to suffer or be abused, period. But it's a sad fact of life that some are. No matter how vigilant the rest of us are, there is always a predator waiting to strike. __________________ "Nature tells every secret once." Ralph Waldo Emerson

02-06-2002, 01:43 PM	#11
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	The History Channel is running an episode of "The History of Sex" dealing with the history behind the christian based churches throughout history..And dove tails well with what Garnet just posted. It is an honest historical look at some of the efforts the church and governments have made toward regulating sex and sexuality..and on their efforts to prevent and punish..."unnatural" acts. Just thought the show was a timely one for this thread, I saw it last night.

02-06-2002, 02:00 PM	#13
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	uhh I forgot to address the issue of what should be done when this type of thing occours. A quick merciful death is probably the best thing for the community affected by these types of predators..but if left to my own devices, the person in question wouldnt get off that easy. I think a slow, painful death is way more fitting..(I may be biased due to being a parent) Of course that would be vengence and well religiously we are supposed to leave that to the lord.....still.....

02-06-2002, 02:54 PM	#18
Cloudbringer Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Upstate NY USA Posts: 19,737	quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I wouldn't think that celibacy leads to pedophilia. I beleive that these priests are already have these sexual tendancies, but may be able to keep them "hidden" before entering the priesthood. It is reprehensible for any priest/pastor/bishop/deacon or ANY authority figure of ANY religious denomination to behave in such a manner - and inexcusable if they are not permanently removed from that position once their actions become known. Bravo! Two points I'll make.. celibacy does not force a person to do anything. It is an INDIVIDUAL choice based on the person's needs/wants/religious beliefs/philosophy, what have you. Celibacy does not lead to pedophilia for goodness sake! How many NON church member pedophiles are there, hmm? What I think happens is that we are especially shocked when someone in a position of trust with children, betrays that trust. Think of daycare centers where workers molest children! I agree, anyone in a position of authority or trust is someone we don't want to see take up hurting children (or anyone else for that matter)! Cloudy __________________ "Don't take life for granted." Animal (may he rest in peace)

02-06-2002, 02:57 PM	#19
MagiK Guest Posts: n/a	quote: Originally posted by Cloudbringer: What I think happens is that we are especially shocked when someone in a position of trust with children, betrays that trust. Think of daycare centers where workers molest children! I agree, anyone in a position of authority or trust is someone we don't want to see take up hurting children (or anyone else for that matter)! Cloudy I agree 100% Cloudy.

02-06-2002, 10:38 PM	#20
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 52 Posts: 9,246	quote: Originally posted by fable: As other churches allow marriage in the priesthood, is the problem the issue of celibacy in the RCC, in your opinion? Or is celibacy okay, and the problem lies with inadequate enforcement of self-imposed discipline within the RCC? Or something else? I don't believe in institutionalised celibacy for Priests. It is not Biblical, and should be a personal choice. Paul recommends being single, yet allows for marriage, and so should the Roman Catholic Church IMO. Almost every other Christian denomination allows Preachers and Pastors to marry, and recognise the importance of family support to a ministry. Whether the said celibacy causes pedophilia or not is not something I have an opinion on. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

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